KR concept vs new concept questions, and perhaps an interesting test

Started by JasonGotaProblem, March 25, 2021, 07:47:44 PM

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JasonGotaProblem

First off, which layout do you personally prefer?

Second, what would happen if one tried to use the KR concept layout using non-k series guides?

The literature I'm reading seems to suggest that the new concept layout is heavily influenced by spool diameter but also considers the upsweep angle. My understanding of the KR concept is that it suggests spool diameter is morw or less irrelevant and the angle is most important.

And for an interesting test, my next build will be a surf rod for my penn 750SS. I also have an 8500SS. They share the same frame and all internals, and differ only by spool and rotor. I have a spare spool for the 750ss that has the same 50# braid as the 8500SS. So if I build the rod based on the KR concept layout, in theory i should see no difference in casting distance between the 750SS and the 8500SS, right? This shouldn't be hard to test. The question is would this test be more illustrative with a heavy or light lure? I'm thinking light. Right?
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

oc1

Old spinners tend to be canted (upsweep angle) less than new spinners.  Sometimes the axis of the spool will point to a spot on the rod that you know is just wrong.

It's a shame that everything we know about guides placement seems to come from the company that is selling us guides.  I'm boycotting Fuji.

philaroman

ditto...   can't test reels canted different, w/ same rod
more important than spool diameter, IMO
diameter matters more for mono memory/coiling

Midway Tommy

Drastic changes in line angle always made me wonder what the rational was behind it. That's why I never bought into the concept guide theory with open face spinners. I've always used a standard setup with an appropriate size first ring (usually 30 or 25 on a UL) and placed the first guide so there wasn't a real sharp bend in the line dispersal, & then tapered the rest of the guides down to the tiptop. If that meant moving the first guide placement a little, so be it, as long as it is still in the approximate appropriate  location. I have never broken a rod or had an issue with distance when casting unless casting into a stiff wind and nothing will help that other than keeping the bait/lure on a low trajectory. So I always figured why try to reinvent a wheel that rolls just fine.   :) 
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

jurelometer

Quote from: oc1 on March 25, 2021, 08:07:32 PM
Old spinners tend to be canted (upsweep angle) less than new spinners.  Sometimes the axis of the spool will point to a spot on the rod that you know is just wrong.

It's a shame that everything we know about guides placement seems to come from the company that is selling us guides.  I'm boycotting Fuji.

Steve is being too skeptical. Would Fuji be marketing the Concept guide system with the slogan "Infinite Reality"  if they were just making s**t up?  No, wait... I am joining the boycott!

But seriously, getting the guides exactly right for new guides with an old style reel will be a bit of trial and error. I would not worry about the guide series as much as the ring diameter, height and location. if you can measure casting distance and come up with a method to determine where guide and blank slap is occurring, you should be able to dial it in.  Tweaking the reel seat location is also an option.

If you want to experiment with a new blank on something that might have  a bit more dramatic effect, consider temporarily wrapping the butt with some cork tape, get a couple hose clamps, a play with the reel up vs reel down location discussed in some recent threads.   Easy enough to pull off the tape and mount the grips and seat wherever you want when you are done.

The lower incline angle in the older Penns might actually be a bit of a benefit on a  down mount. And a down mount would probably be a bit more tolerant of guide positioning and balance if you want to swap between the 750 and 850.  

-J

Jeri

Quote from: oc1 on March 25, 2021, 08:07:32 PM
Old spinners tend to be canted (upsweep angle) less than new spinners.  Sometimes the axis of the spool will point to a spot on the rod that you know is just wrong.

It's a shame that everything we know about guides placement seems to come from the company that is selling us guides.  I'm boycotting Fuji.

The question/statement is incomplete, what about the newer models from Shimano, that don't have any upsweep angle, they have a spool axis parallel to the foot/rod? Then the schemes totally fail, as the supposed 'choke point' is at infinity.................... :) :) :)

JasonGotaProblem

My 6500SSV is almost parallel. I actually shimmed the base of the reel foot a little bit and I think it's casting better as a result*

(*I can't rule out that my longer casts are a result of more practice casting a heavy surf rod, I'd have to test it)
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Jeri

The KRC is basically a development forwards from the slightly older NGC, both are Fuji's response to what they have found from their research and development. Fuji are perhaps the only company publishing such research, none appears from companies like PacBay, Sea Guide, ALPS or any others. Is that because it is cheaper to copy, rather than innovate through published research?

I would believe that Fuji are looking to provide a service to the need for 'rules' in rod building, that seems an endemic requirement of modern life, while I do agree some starting points are necessary, a lot of folks get bound up in these being hard and fast; and that alternatives just don't comply. We looked into the KF concept for some of our long surf rods, but totally ignored the 'rules' defining the positioning of the first guide, given that the idea of rapidly reducing the effect or disruption of line flow, toward quicker straight running lines would/might yield more distance on our surf rods. The first KR rod we built was a single piece 15', with the first guide about 76" above the reel seat - a huge distance by 'conventional rules', these were KL-H guides. Rapidly going down in size from 25 to 10 (25, 16, 12 if memory serves me), followed by a string of single foot KT guides size 10. Surprisingly it did everything that it was suggested to do on the box, more distance, easier casting, more power from the rod, and more sensitivity. Obviously not all these factors came from purely the KR concept, but the combination worked well, even with the very high line speed we achieve with our long rods. The added bonus, is that the system never showed signs of throwing a line wrap around any of the guides.

The fragile nature of the KL-H single leg guides for our environment was a little bit of a worry, so next up was a change to using 3 Low Riders (straight faced guides with high but small eyes) 20, 12 & 10, followed by the same KT guides for the runners. More robust build, and pretty much the same results, so basically a hybrid of the original KR concept. We have since taken the sizes down one level to 16M, 10, 8 for the Low Riders and KT8 for the runners and the results are slight improvement on the performance of the rod in all aspects.

The system works, whether pure KRC or hybrid, but the only thing that we have changed drastically is this reel spindle aspect of the rules. Certainly looks unconventional, but out performs all of the traditional Cone of Flight designs and even rods built purely to the Fuji recipes for rod building; whether they use the larger KW guides or any others. We get a lot of customers bringing their rods that have been built with the KW guides to us complaining about lack of performance, and the 'quick fix' is simply to cut off the first big KW guide, instantly there is an increase in performance, without the cost implications of having the whole rod stripped and rebuilt.

A slight side issue that has readily become apparent from 'our design', is that it works on all the different reels our clients might put on their rods, from 35 year old deep angle Penn Spinfisher 750's to ultra modern Shimano Stellas with parallel spindle designs. Personally, I don't think the reel design is the big issue on the design criteria.

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: Jeri on March 26, 2021, 12:30:36 AM
A slight side issue that has readily become apparent from 'our design', is that it works on all the different reels our clients might put on their rods, from 35 year old deep angle Penn Spinfisher 750's to ultra modern Shimano Stellas with parallel spindle designs. Personally, I don't think the reel design is the big issue on the design criteria.
Excellent post, thank you. But to clarify, are you saying that your layout is not reel-specific?

Also what I'm confused by, is that so much concern is about the line slapping the blank, but with so much space between the reel and the first guide, wouldn't that slap the rod... A lot? Clearly you're onto something I'm just not quite wrapping my head around that aspect.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

oldmanjoe

      8)    I like this video  . 
      The English version    https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Y9d6TUsZ4c4
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

oc1

I can't understand anything after 1:30.  The take-away seems to be that you need to buy 21 guides for each rod and it would be really cool to have a high-speed video camera.  Thank you Fuji.

I have a lot of trouble watching for rod slap in the middle of a cast and never found a good way to do it.  Do you think you could dust the rod with talcum powder before the cast to show where the line is slapping it?

Jeri

Quote from: JasonGotaPenn on March 26, 2021, 01:21:00 AM
Quote from: Jeri on March 26, 2021, 12:30:36 AM
A slight side issue that has readily become apparent from 'our design', is that it works on all the different reels our clients might put on their rods, from 35 year old deep angle Penn Spinfisher 750's to ultra modern Shimano Stellas with parallel spindle designs. Personally, I don't think the reel design is the big issue on the design criteria.
Excellent post, thank you. But to clarify, are you saying that your layout is not reel-specific?

Also what I'm confused by, is that so much concern is about the line slapping the blank, but with so much space between the reel and the first guide, wouldn't that slap the rod... A lot? Clearly you're onto something I'm just not quite wrapping my head around that aspect.

Quote from: oc1 on March 26, 2021, 05:09:54 AM
I can't understand anything after 1:30.  The take-away seems to be that you need to buy 21 guides for each rod and it would be really cool to have a high-speed video camera.  Thank you Fuji.

I have a lot of trouble watching for rod slap in the middle of a cast and never found a good way to do it.  Do you think you could dust the rod with talcum powder before the cast to show where the line is slapping it?

I've mentioned this before, when testing rods for line slap, if I think it might be occurring - I dust the blank between the reel and first guide with powdered chalk. Soon shows up, if any slap is occurring.

This whole KR design ties in with the reversing tunnel of small coils coming back towards the handle from the first guide. So, no line slap is likely to occur, because the tunnel is so small and centred on the high profile first guide.

We didn't just go straight out to 180 cm (or more) space for the first guide straight away. We started at the Fuji suggested 120cm, and that worked, but seemed to choke the flow of line, so we removed the taped guides and moved the whole issue up to 150cm, it was better, then 180cm. Subsequently we have built some at 210cm, and even 235cm - still no line slap.

In answer to OC1, we ended up using 3 guides to effect the rapid reduction, then 5 very small guides to effect the running train, even on a 14' long rod.

Midway Tommy

Quote from: oc1 on March 26, 2021, 05:09:54 AM
I can't understand anything after 1:30.  The take-away seems to be that you need to buy 21 guides for each rod and it would be really cool to have a high-speed video camera.  Thank you Fuji.

I have a lot of trouble watching for rod slap in the middle of a cast and never found a good way to do it.  Do you think you could dust the rod with talcum powder before the cast to show where the line is slapping it?

"Ring size, and being a subject of much debate", as evidenced right here, sure rang a bell with me. It's an interesting study but I wish they would give some specifics about the improvements in casting distance & accuracy. It doesn't make much sense to me to add 6 or 8 guides, including the added weight, to gain 10 feet in distance. 
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

Rivverrat

Quote from: Jeri on March 26, 2021, 12:30:36 AM

I would believe that Fuji are looking to provide a service to the need for 'rules' in rod building, that seems an endemic requirement of modern life, while I do agree some starting points are necessary, a lot of folks get bound up in these being hard and fast; and that alternatives just don't comply. 

       + 10

Rivverrat

Quote from: Midway Tommy on March 26, 2021, 07:28:10 PM

"Ring size, and being a subject of much debate", as evidenced right here, sure rang a bell with me. It's an interesting study but I wish they would give some specifics about the improvements in casting distance & accuracy. It doesn't make much sense to me to add 6 or 8 guides, including the added weight, to gain 10 feet in distance. 

   For some it is worth it. But sometimes changing line used can do the same. More guides or less guides can drastically change not only distance but how the rod feels when playing a fish. A fella who has become good friend  that I have built rods for, having retired with fat bank account, has me purchase two of the same blank wrapping them both differently. He buys one he likes & leaves the other blank to me.

   While the taper of a rod can be changed a lot using different guide styles I dont like doing this. If left to my own devices I think its best to build with the taper of the blank in mind. Meaning I dont want the guides used messing with the action of the rod ... Random thoughts ... Jeff