Cardinal 4 issue

Catching Nemo · October 26, 2021, 01:06:22 AM

Hi folks,

Continuing to work on various project Cardinal 4 reels... would appreciate some guidance:

I took a chance and purchased a used Cardinal 4 reel on the bay, which the seller said was "not reeling smoothly". I think I found the culprit. See the attached pic, which is a pic that I lifted from Tommy's "Cardinal 4 Experience" thread and then added my notes:

When I crank the reel, the pin (part 5484) on the main shaft will eventually reach a position (after 4.5 cranks) where pin 5484 rubs/sticks/jams on the end surface of the worm gear/pinion bushing (part 9878). I need to apply more force in my cranking in order to free the pin/shaft and complete the revolution.

All of the other parts of the reel seem to be present and not damaged (I tested multiple shafts and other parts in this reel, and the same problem occurs). So, basically I need a longer shaft (so as to provide clearance between pin 5484 and the top surface of 9878), and this solution of course will not be possible since all of the shafts are universal size.

Or, I can keep the same shaft but use a "shortened" worm gear/pinion bushing (part 9878). I think I can get the clearance, if I "shorten" part 9878 by filing down its end surface where the two parts are rubbing. What do you think?

Thanks

Wompus Cat · October 26, 2021, 01:43:25 AM

Not familiar with the Cardinals but if it is anything like the Dam Reels you should be able to shim the Worm Gear where it fits inside the housing to pull back a bit so the pin will clear .
Put shim on top of worm gear then install gear in housing .
Things wear over the years and may have just recessed in the housing .

Midway Tommy · October 26, 2021, 02:36:26 AM

There is no way that should happen as you are stating because the cross pin should be in the recess in the back of the spool. The spool should be hitting, not the cross pin. There is something else going on. Remove the side plate and show us the inside parts. It sounds more like a connecting link/oscillation arm problem. Are you sure the bearing is seated all the way and the internal clip is in the slot? You have to make sure the rotor cup nut is completely tight on the pinion before you install the main gear. Also, make sure you have all the spring washers in the correct locations. I have over 50 Cardinal 4s and have never run across a problem like that.

Wompus Cat · October 26, 2021, 02:48:35 AM

The only way I can see the pin hitting the top of the pinion Gear on any spinning reel is for it to be assembled wrong or shims missing .

Gfish · October 26, 2021, 03:16:00 PM

The first thing I'd check is what Tommy said : "the connecting link/ossilation arm". Sounds like it's pulling the spool shaft(with the pin) down too far. This can be adjusted by removing or adding the right washer. Check the bottom of spool shaft where it attaches to the ossilation arm. If you have line on it, how's it laying on the spool?

Wompus Cat · October 26, 2021, 03:58:04 PM

I don't know come here from sic em on Cardinals . All the ones I ever heard of were Catholics.
and is this a Zebco or Garcia either

But IF this is the Schematic I don't see and shims nor how the shaft is held on the arm .Is there a set screw to lock the lever in place ? or is something bent and or assembled wrong like Tommy says.
Plus I am assuming this problem exists with the Reel all together and not with the Spool off cuz that would make a diff.

PacRat · October 26, 2021, 05:11:51 PM

Every Cardinal that I have ever worked on has a small shim washer on the shaft between 11134 and 8846. I don't see it in the schematic. I have had similar issues and have experimented with moving the shim to the other side of the block (111134) of the oscillation arm. This shim washer is typically found on the rear side of the block near the e-clip. This causes the shaft to pull back slightly deeper. If you move the shim to the forward side between the block and the drag assembly, it will push the shaft out slightly further.

If this doesn't solve it I would stone the forward end of the pinion slightly. Take a little of and try it then repeat until it feels right. Go slow...you can't put metal back on as easily as you can take it off.

This has come up for me when building parts reels. Sometimes the cross pin contacts the pinion and sometimes a spool (mostly aluminum) will lightly contact the winding cup and this is how I solve it.

Good luck

Catching Nemo · October 26, 2021, 08:48:27 PM

Thanks everyone for your input. A few comments:

- the pin is definitely jamming up against the end surface of the pinion/bushing. I put a light coat of grease on the surface (to check), and that grease is scraped off by the pin when the pin rubs against the surface.

- I haven't yet tried replacing the current oscillation arm with a different arm (from another reel), and I will try that later this week (along with additional tinkering and diagnosis)

- I had the same thought when I was diagnosing this: the oscillation arm may be pulling the shaft too far back, and so the pin rubs against the pinion surface. I will also try the relocation of the shim, as Pac Rat suggested, and maybe that may solve it.

- if a replacement oscillation arm or relocation the shim(s) doesn't fix it, then grinding down the pinion end surface is still an available option, I guess as one of the last(?) resorts.

Will try to report back later this week.

Gfish · October 26, 2021, 09:57:29 PM

Do you godda spool for this one? And, if so, is it hitting the rotor cup or pinion bushing?

Here's a 6 and 4, I had out after use. Gotta dry-out the rotor cup after FW rinse. Behind those is a Mitchell Garcia 302 mostly apart in the container.(pic.-3). They all got splashed with saltwater, Saturday, then rinsed with FW. The MG is full of emulsified grease and salt crystals😟, whereas the Cardinals never seem to get any water in the gear-box 😃!?!?...
On the 4(pic.-1), the shim is on the top of the ossilation arm and there is pretty even line lay. On the 6(pic.-2), the shim is on the end side of the spool shaft plus I added an SS washer to adjust it for better line-lay. Not great, but it's the best I could do. Note that the 4 has a metal connecting block and the 6's is nylon(?)😠.

Hope you can see it. Tap on the pictures, the shim on the 4 is slightly tweaked. Interested to see what is making that shaft dip so low, or, if it's got something to do with the pinion assembly...

Midway Tommy · October 27, 2021, 05:21:40 AM

A washer (8669) should actually be placed/located in front of the block on the connecting link/oscillation arm as I noted on photo 18 in the tutorial. The schematics are vague and inconsistent in this respect. The 3 & 4 schematics don't show it at all and some 6 & 7 schematics show it behind the block while others (the earlier ones) show it in front of the block. If there is no washer in front of the block, especially on the 3s & 4s because the block is steel and the main shaft is brass, the splines on the brass shaft, under hard use, will eventually wear enough to allow it to creep back into the block. The washer provides a spacer and cushion between the two to prevent or reduce the wear. I have opened many a reel and found that washer between the block and e-clip (8846). I always put in front of the block when I reassemble the reel.

Wompus Cat · October 27, 2021, 06:54:41 AM

It all makes sense Now . Thanks Tommy
Schematic is piss poor in showing any Shims or where you could place them .

Catching Nemo · October 29, 2021, 08:44:53 PM

Hi everyone,

I spent more time on this today, trying different solutions:

Shim in front of the oscillation block = nope

Shim behind oscillation block = nope

No shim = nope

Swap out oscillation arm with an oscillation arm from another reel = BINGO

Whatever defect there is in the problem arm, I can't see it by visually comparing the problem arm with a "good" arm.

Thanks everyone for your guidance.

PacRat · October 29, 2021, 11:30:56 PM

Glad you got it. Thanks for the update. I'll remember this fix for next time. I keep buying cheap Cardinals for parts but as soon as I look at it I think 'this isn't so bad...then I buy another parts reel to fix my parts reel. Tommy knows his stuff and he's a smart man to stick with these.

Mike

Midway Tommy · October 30, 2021, 04:51:16 AM

Quote from: PacRat on October 29, 2021, 11:30:56 PM
Glad you got it. Thanks for the update. I'll remember this fix for next time. I keep buying cheap Cardinals for parts but as soon as I look at it I think 'this isn't so bad...then I buy another parts reel to fix my parts reel. Tommy knows his stuff and he's a smart man to stick with these.

Mike

Thanks for the compliment, kind Sir! I've been fishing with and messing with these Cardinals since 1970. I've seen about just about everything but I've never run across an oscillation arm that was worn enough to let the main shaft pin hit the pinion tube. Usually the rivet on the block breaks when they get worn that much.

Glad you figured it out Nemo. Those arms/connecting links are pretty easy to come by and not very expensive, $5-6 or so.

PacRat · October 30, 2021, 05:30:08 AM

The first time I saw a Cardinal was around 1980. My brother came home from Georgia with a Cardinal 3 and swore it was the best reel ever. He showed me how smooth the drag was and how superior a stern drag was. He never let me fish it though. I remember him using it in the ocean with 4 lb line on it and landing a decent halibut on it. My dad and I just ate lunch and tossed scraps at him because he was taking too long but he got it done with about four trips around the boat. About all my fishing was saltwater then so I mostly used Penn and Shimano (seems like Shimano was just crossing over from bicycles). My next freshwater spinner was a Shimano with a stern drag because I liked my brother's Zebco. I hadn't even thought of those Zebcos for years until I came here and started seeing Tommy's reels. I hit my brother up to see if he would sell me his as I hadn't see it on any of his rods. He refused so I bought a couple online and just absolutely love them. I've got at least 2 of each size and a few high-speeds too. Great reels!

Mike