Smoked Yellowtail

Started by Brewcrafter, August 28, 2022, 01:13:12 AM

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Brewcrafter

Marinated in honey, beer, chipotle and red pepper.  just pulled out of the Weber having been caressed with Cherry Wood!  Alongside some good Pale Ale.
Yellowtail.jpg

scrinch

Looks delicious! I find it hard to keep smoked yellowtail moist, so keep those beers coming! :d

sciaenops

#2
Wow with Sierra Nevada PA even, one of my all time favorites

boon

Time/temperature? I smoke a lot of collars/belly from the ones we keep.

Looks great!

Brewcrafter

Collars and bellies I suspect would go quicker (less mass).  I am usually sitting at 200F, and monitor the fish to the desired doneness.  With my instant read I am looking for 130-135.
Scrinch - My marinades are almost started the night before, and I usually begin the smoking process late morning/early afternoon depending on the "todo" list from the Officer in Charge.  But a couple of not-so-simple rules of thumb:
1.  The most common offense with cooking fish (or any protein for that matter) is overcooking.  Keep in mind that when a protein is removed from the heat source, they will usually continue to rise in temp (cook) for a given amount of time.  too hot, too fast, too long will all accomplish this.
2.  Osmosis.  This is why brining is so popular.  While I am sure that a physics teacher (or jurleometer  :D ) will chastise me for oversimplifying this, a solution heavy in sodium will cause the water molecules to want to migrate into/stay within the walls of the cells that are also full of fluid (and hopefully carry some flavor with it).  It's something of the same principle that allows a fat guy like me to float in saltwater easier than in freshwater.  And sugar molecules will perform in much the same way (osmotic pressure from the higher density marinade causing fluid to migrate through cell walls).  It is not an instant process.  Also, many recipes will recommend rinsing the meat after the brining - this is to get rid of all that excess salt on the outside of the meat (because the flavor should be "inside" by that time).  Also, (to really make it complicated) too much heat, too fast or too long, will cause the protein matrix (the cells themselves) to "shrink up" (think similar to wringing out a wet kitchen towel) and drive any fluid/moisture back out of the cell structure.  This is why you should always let proteins "rest" for a period after removing from the heat, to allow this reaction to stabilize so that when you slice into the meat you do not end up with dry meat sitting in a puddle of juice.
Side note, when I smoke I always go for retaining the moisture and everything will be refrigerated and eaten within a day or two.  You can take it to the next level and dry out all of the moisture (leaving a high sodium/low moisture environment) and have a preserved "jerky" type product that has vary good perishability, but that is not what I usually shoot for.
As a side note I took one piece tonight, chopped it fine into a tub of whipped cream cheese, and we had appetizer night with a sleeve of crackers and beverages on the back patio this evening....

Cor

Quote from: scrinch on August 29, 2022, 04:29:26 PMLooks delicious! I find it hard to keep smoked yellowtail moist, so keep those beers coming! :d
The rule with all fish cooking, and somehow more so with Yellowtail is "rather undercook then over"  Slightly pink inside is perfect!

My wife has perfected this art and she goes to all kinds of pains to keep the thin side cooked to the same level as the thicker side of the same piece by covering thinner bits with foil when grilling.    Also cook similar size pieces together.

I hot smoke Bonita very often, thin belly pieces around 7 minutes and thick pieces around 14 minutes.   This is as far as my culinary skills go.   ;D  :ct
Cornelis

jurelometer

#6
Quote from: Brewcrafter on August 30, 2022, 04:20:43 AMCollars and bellies I suspect would go quicker (less mass).  I am usually sitting at 200F, and monitor the fish to the desired doneness.  With my instant read I am looking for 130-135.
Scrinch - My marinades are almost started the night before, and I usually begin the smoking process late morning/early afternoon depending on the "todo" list from the Officer in Charge.  But a couple of not-so-simple rules of thumb:
1.  The most common offense with cooking fish (or any protein for that matter) is overcooking.  Keep in mind that when a protein is removed from the heat source, they will usually continue to rise in temp (cook) for a given amount of time.  too hot, too fast, too long will all accomplish this.
2.  Osmosis.  This is why brining is so popular.  While I am sure that a physics teacher (or jurleometer  :D ) will chastise me for oversimplifying this, a solution heavy in sodium will cause the water molecules to want to migrate into/stay within the walls of the cells that are also full of fluid (and hopefully carry some flavor with it).  It's something of the same principle that allows a fat guy like me to float in saltwater easier than in freshwater.  And sugar molecules will perform in much the same way (osmotic pressure from the higher density marinade causing fluid to migrate through cell walls).  It is not an instant process.  Also, many recipes will recommend rinsing the meat after the brining - this is to get rid of all that excess salt on the outside of the meat (because the flavor should be "inside" by that time).  Also, (to really make it complicated) too much heat, too fast or too long, will cause the protein matrix (the cells themselves) to "shrink up" (think similar to wringing out a wet kitchen towel) and drive any fluid/moisture back out of the cell structure.  This is why you should always let proteins "rest" for a period after removing from the heat, to allow this reaction to stabilize so that when you slice into the meat you do not end up with dry meat sitting in a puddle of juice.
Side note, when I smoke I always go for retaining the moisture and everything will be refrigerated and eaten within a day or two.  You can take it to the next level and dry out all of the moisture (leaving a high sodium/low moisture environment) and have a preserved "jerky" type product that has vary good perishability, but that is not what I usually shoot for.
As a side note I took one piece tonight, chopped it fine into a tub of whipped cream cheese, and we had appetizer night with a sleeve of crackers and beverages on the back patio this evening....

Well since you mentioned my name :)


That yellowtail does look tasty, so I am not suggesting a change in procedures :)

I don't smoke. But I do a bit of dry brining- no flavored marinating any more. From what I have read it works something like this:

Pretty much nothing in the marinade other than the salt and water gets much past the surface. That includes sugar.  The molecules are too large. Flavoring the surface can be done right before cooking, and it is easier to get the right amount on by applying it directly rather than by soaking in a flavored solution.

Dry salt "brining" will at first pull some water out, but later,  the now salty water gets pulled back in relaxing proteins  (or something like that). These relaxed protein chains  will contract less while cooking and therefore will squeeze out less moisture. Pretty close to what you posted.  This is mostly the benefit from brining.

Going to a wet brine, the same basic idea (only the salt and water penetrate beyond the surface), but you end up with more water inside than with a dry brine.  The downside is that if you don't cook out all the extra moisture, the meat/fish will taste blander.  It will also taste blander due to to some oils, etc near the surface leaching into the brine.  After a long soak, I would venture that the brine would taste a bit fish-like.  That is flavor that is no longer in the fish.  So there is probably an ideal soak time for a wet brine based on the type of fish, salinity, fillet thickness, smoking time & temp.

According to the food scientists, the extra ingredients do not penetrate far and do whatever they are going to do to the surface fairly quickly, so these can be added closer to cooking.  With two exceptions: Acids or enzymes in the brine can break down the proteins near the surface,  leading to some mushiness if left too long.

Here is an interesting article with some experiments to estimate penetration on various types of meat and seafood. 

https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/marinades-and-brinerades/science-of-marinades-and-brinerades/

The article claims that if you use anything with alcohol, that you should cook off the alcohol first, or it will "cook" the surface and prevent the flavors from adhering.  Maybe not a big deal with just a bit of beer.

Now that ChileRelleno is back around, hope he sees this and will add his experiences as well.

Better cooking through science!


-J

scrinch

Thanks for the explanations. I guess what prompted my comment was (besides an affinity to beer) the color of the smoked filets. If I smoked yellowtail until it was that color, it would be jerky inside. But I'm such a simpleton when it comes to smoking, I have no idea how honey in a brine, or the temperature of the smoker, or any other factor, might affect the outside color of the fish. I mostly smoke salmon, and just use an electric smoker with a water-salt-brown sugar-garlic powder brine. I have no idea what temperature I smoke at...I just know how long it takes to turn out right on my particular smoker.

BTW I like the idea of a dry "brine". Kinda like a breadless sandwich. It works, but the words start to have different meanings!  ::)

jigmaster501

Guys and gals,

It has been awhile since I posted in this section.

Dry brining pulls out moisture and allows salt and or sugar to penetrate. Salt/ sugar mixes take longer to penetrate.

The key with brining is adding enough salt so when combined with proper drying in the smoker you achieve the proper moisture content in the finished product.

Brining must be done at temps less than 38F.

Smoking makes a pellicle which Cbot spores can germinate under as the pellicle creates an anaerobic environment.

The rate of smoke deposition affects the rates of drying.

Constant rate drying is when the moisture is evaporated off the surfaces at the same rate as it is being pulled to the surface.

Falling rate drying is when the moisture at the surface is being evaporated faster than it is being pulled to the surface.

Staying in the constant rate drying zone will achieve the most uniform results.

Be sure to have smoke applied during the first half of the smoking cycle mininum to ensure smoke is deposited under the pellicle to ensure phenolic compounds are present under and above the pellicle. This will drop the pH under the pellicle to ensure Cbot spores will not germinate and create toxin. This needs to be combined proper brining, proper smoking (reaching 145 F internal and holding for 30 minutes minimum, AND keeping the finished product at 38F or less until consumed.

If the fish will be consumed immediately after smoking, reaching 145F for 15 seconds is sufficient.


jurelometer

#9
Quote from: jigmaster501 on October 12, 2022, 12:49:17 AMDry brining pulls out moisture and allows salt and or sugar to penetrate. Salt/ sugar mixes take longer to penetrate.

Good to see you back!  Your recent post on using pressure as a preservation technique had me rushing out to read some articles and papers.  Fascinating stuff.

Getting back to brining, from what I have read  (and posted above)  sugar and most other flavoring agents used in brines have molecules that are too large to absorb very deeply into muscle in any reasonable length of time, so this part of the marinade/brining blend is not effective beyond being a surface treatment. 

Any enlightenment would be appreciated.  I am more interested in getting it right than being right.

-J



Ron Jones

I see the 145 requirement often, and I still don't understand the reasoning. Is the issue the period of the cooking process where there is a danger of microbes forming?

I ask because it is perfectly safe to pull a yellowtail out of the water, slice it up and eat it without any cooking at all, so how does it become unsafe by adding heat?

This is not a critique, I'm hoping someone can provide an answer.

The Man
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

Gobi King

John,
wow
Now I am craving some smoked fish, good looking smoked fish, how deep is the smoked bark?
I take my fish to a smoke house, bit of a drive, so I need to try my arms at it ...

Definitely, learned a lot from the input here.
Shibs - aka The Gobi King
Fichigan

jigmaster501

145f internal and held for 30 minutes provides a partial destruction of non proteolytic cbot spores and in combination with 3.5 percent wps will inhibit cbot toxin formation in combination with refrigerated Temps of 38f or less. This is for hot smoke. The pellicle creates an anaerobic environment which cbot spores germinate and for toxin in under temp abuse conditions. Same with vacuum packaging. When in doubt, or you don't have special equipment,  freeze the product until consumption

jurelometer

#13
Quote from: Ron Jones on October 13, 2022, 03:40:15 PMI see the 145 requirement often, and I still don't understand the reasoning. Is the issue the period of the cooking process where there is a danger of microbes forming?

I ask because it is perfectly safe to pull a yellowtail out of the water, slice it up and eat it without any cooking at all, so how does it become unsafe by adding heat?

This is not a critique, I'm hoping someone can provide an answer.

The Man
Quote from: jigmaster501 on October 13, 2022, 04:50:47 PM145f internal and held for 30 minutes provides a partial destruction of non proteolytic cbot spores and in combination with 3.5 percent wps will inhibit cbot toxin formation in combination with refrigerated Temps of 38f or less. This is for hot smoke. The pellicle creates an anaerobic environment which cbot spores germinate and for toxin in under temp abuse conditions. Same with vacuum packaging. When in doubt, or you don't have special equipment,  freeze the product until consumption

I think the question was more along the lines of why is it that raw fish that was never heated to above 140F  can be potentially safe to eat.  Let me take a layman's stab at the answer.

When the fish is alive and swimming around, the meat is protected by skin and membranes, and there is also an active immune system to kill off stuff like bacteria.  So probably not much nasty bacteria in the actual muscle tissue of a healthy fish  As you noted, if you have a clean spot on the boat, you could slice off some sashimi and consume immediately after landing (assuming that the species is not on the list recommended for deep freezing to kill parasites). 

From what I have read, refrigeration does not play much of a role in actually killing off these spoilage/diseases causing bacteria- it just slows down the rate of reproduction. So we are basically trying to slow down the clock starting from the point when the fish is harvested via hygienic processing and rapid chilling. This will minimize the amount of bacteria introduced into the meat and slow the reproduction rate, extending the window where raw consumption is at an acceptably low risk.

Outside of the raw consumption situation, you have to worry about the temperature danger zone where reproduction of disease-causing  bacteria  is accelerated. Heat above 140F will do a job on the live bacteria, but not so much the spores.  Temps below 40F slow down reproduction, so the residual spores just don't turn into a new batch of live bacteria.  Heat above 140 to consume, transition rapidly to below 40 for short term storage. Easy-peasy.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/safe-food-handling-and-preparation/food-safety-basics/danger-zone-40f-140f


I think Eugene was referring to the goal for hot smoking which sounds like it is is more about using smoke to get a bacteria-unfriendly layer on on and more importantly just under the surface, and then using heat to kill off most of the internal live bacteria, and refrigeration to prevent the heat-resistant spores still viable from replacing them.

Or something like that.


-J

jigmaster501

J,

Sort of.

Raw fish out of the water has several hazards to content with. Bacteria, accumulated toxins (for instance ciguatera-depends on the waters and species), spoilage microorganisms which enzymatically convert amino acids into toxins such as histamine (scombroid species and a several others), parasites (species specific), spores which create toxin (Clostridium botulinum) just to name a few.

Bacteria can be in the water, on the fish, in the intestines and on the gills.
Control of cooling, storage temperature, proper evisceration, vessel sanitation, etc all factor in on how much growth takes place. Sometimes there are enough pathogenic bacteria present out of the water to get someone sick.

Histamine formation (species specific) is dependent on everything above combined with rapid cooling and maintaining temperatures of fish below 40F. This cannot be cooked out when formed. Not like bacteria.

Spores like Cbot only produce toxin under anaerobic conditions combined with temperature abuse.

Parasites are controlled with proper cooking and/or proper freezing when dealing with a parasite containing species.

Brining increases the salt content (and/or sugar) which reduces competition from weaker bacteria. This leaves toxin producers like Staphylococccus aureus (from human contact) and Cbot to thrive and create toxin when the conditions are right which generally won't occur on plain raw fish. Limited oxygen under a brine. This is one game changer.


Smoking creates a pellicle which can create an anaerobic environment which allows Cbot to have a great environment to create toxin during temp abuse conditions. This is another game changer.

This is where hurdles come in.

1) Proper brining to achieve proper salt/sugar content.
2) Proper smoking to reduce moisture and create a pellicle with phenolic compounds UNDER the pellicle to reduce the pH (other factors too) where the most spores are present to inhibit toxin formation.
3) If cold smoking, 1 and 2 factor in and temps in the smokehouse below 90F allow for spoilage microorganisms to flourish which will smell if temperature abused as an inhibitor to consumption and to help with competition. (No spore destruction of non-proteolytic Cbot spores)
4) If hot smoking, 1 and 2 factor in and internal temperatures reaching 145f and above for a minimum of 30 minutes to provide a PARTIAL destruction of non-proteolytic Cbot spores.
5) All combine with storage temperatures less than 38F as the last barrier (hurdle) to prevent Cbot toxin formation.

Non-proteolytic Cbot spores create toxin with NO off gassing, nor any odor. (No indicator of toxin formation)

Proteolytic Cbot spores create toxin with off gassing and odor production.


Hope this helps without confusing everyone.. I get good at that sometimes...lol