alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Penn Torque Lever Drag 2-Speed 25N: Service Tutorial and First Look
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Author Topic: Penn Torque Lever Drag 2-Speed 25N: Service Tutorial and First Look  (Read 35717 times)
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Tightlines667
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2015, 01:51:53 AM »

John, i can handle the complete strip down and rebuild of my Baja specials.  What is the comparable level of difficulty of the work you have so professionally documented on these 25nld2's?  It's time for me to acquire a 2 speed but am a little intimidated by their apparent complexity. 

If you are comfortable and confident servicing the Bajas, you should be able to service a 2-speed lever drag, especially with the help and tutorials provided here.  Just break the reel down to subassemblies, and takeit step-by-step.  Start with a reel that isn't too badly corroded, or worn.  Spacing and shimming to achiebe proper spacing is probably the trickiest part.  Most things can be dolved with organization, patience, and some trial and error.  Don't let them intimidate you.
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2015, 02:18:02 AM »

John, i can handle the complete strip down and rebuild of my Baja specials.  What is the comparable level of difficulty of the work you have so professionally documented on these 25nld2's?  It's time for me to acquire a 2 speed but am a little intimidated by their apparent complexity. 

The dogs on the Baja Special are a little tedious to be honest, and nothing here is any worse than that at all.

Left side and spool assembly is easy peasy, closing the reel is no trouble once you have figured out the order like I show in the tutorial so that only leaves the shifting mechanism which just is not hard at all if you have the proper Penn Spanner (required). As above as the reel ages the Delrin bushings on the gears may need replacement but that is no trouble, really.

All in all really the trick to every reel is knowing the "trick" to the proper order of re-assembly and how some pitfall has to be avoided. Hopefully that is covered in the tutorial and if not, we are standing by to assist. That is where the time is spent: Unfamiliarity with a new design.

After that, there is nothing esoteric or truly requires any skills. Just patience and care that dog ears aren't bent and c-clips are not lost in the nether etc. Be especially careful of tiny clicker nubs like under the lever Cheesy.

With a careful systematic approach it is simple and no more challenging than a Baja at all.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 02:19:03 AM by johndtuttle » Logged
Tiddlerbasher
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 10:52:52 AM »

John - thank you for this tutorial, very infomative Smiley I would love to have seen a close-up of the thrust bearing and its conical washer. Is the purpose of the washer to remove the load, from the inner race, and shift it to the outer race. Could a similar effect be achieved with a shim between the spool bearing and thrust bearing? The od of the shim would be the same as the spool bearing, but the id could be large enough to miss the inner race maybe Undecided? I am considering (have been for a while) modding my Andros and probably my Omoto VS10. I've played with angular contact bearings, big BUT the cost Shocked While ss thrust bearings are readily available and cheap as chips Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 03:02:08 PM »

John - thank you for this tutorial, very infomative Smiley I would love to have seen a close-up of the thrust bearing and its conical washer. Is the purpose of the washer to remove the load, from the inner race, and shift it to the outer race. Could a similar effect be achieved with a shim between the spool bearing and thrust bearing? The od of the shim would be the same as the spool bearing, but the id could be large enough to miss the inner race maybe Undecided? I am considering (have been for a while) modding my Andros and probably my Omoto VS10. I've played with angular contact bearings, big BUT the cost Shocked While ss thrust bearings are readily available and cheap as chips Cheesy

Think of the Thrust Bearing as accomplishing just that, but it has actual balls that run on races at 90 degrees from a standard bearing's race. I have used the "Lazy Susan" analogy before (the table top circular platform, that freely rotates) which allow it to take axial load. Essentially it has balls between two washers of different dimensions to completely free up the inner race of the spool bearing AND freely spin like a simple thrust washer would not.

The use of a plain washer to protect the inner race of the pinion bearing (most reels that do not use a thrust bearing put more pressure on the RS bearing) is reasonable to consider, but then there is felt handle pressure from the friction as the washer must spin too. Space can be a problem as well for meshing of the pinion and gears.

In the final analysis, the reel has to be engineered to have this part to function ideally and this has been the "mental block" preventing it from being incorporated into all designs.

Originally the solution was to simply oversize the RS bearing (Accurate) or use an inexpensive solution to only use modest presets and replace the pinion bearing often (Avet) etc as this worked for most of the guys fishing their reel with relatively light drag and they have few complaints. The converse, really addressing the problem, requires a redesign that incorporates the proper solution. This costs money that has to be weighed against the potential benefit to sales.

Avet (so far) for example, is just taking a stay the course approach to keep the reels cheap rather than accept the redesign costs.

The problem is also what the makers really intend the reel for and the common use in the home fishery of the maker reflects this. An Avet SX is not a bottom fishing reel for hard pulling fish. It is an open water live bait reel for smaller models. It is too small and slow for use with SoCal iron (yo-yo) and by the time you move up to the appropriate size reel to get more speed (HX) you then have less trouble as everything has gotten bigger etc etc. So, no sense to really redesign an SX as the reel at 8-10lbs of drag works fine on the surface for 90% of the guys buying the reel. You get the idea...Fundamentally, the engineers of these reels know all about the issues, they just weigh the cost versus the complaints and nothing gets done until sales start hurting is how the ordinary business gets run....Sad...

But, if you are bringing a brand new to market reel like Penn has, then the additional cost is negligible and we benefit.

Anyways, the true dilemma is that you want the handle to spin freely and lightly at any preset. You could easily replace the pinion bearing with a brass bushing and never worry about bearing damage ever again! But the handle would get stiff the higher the drag preset.

Just another example showing you that a Thrust Bearing is the true solution. Even though it gets used as a "drag washer" it spins very freely.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 04:15:50 PM by johndtuttle » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 05:25:53 PM »

Hi John, the issue I was trying to clarify is the purpose of the washer between the thrust bearing and LS spool bearing - as in your photo:



The purpose of thrust bearings I understand - I use them regularly in my projects Smiley

Does the washer transfer the force (which acts on the thrust bearing) to the outside race of the spool bearing? Thereby removing the force from the inner race.
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2015, 05:56:10 PM »

Hi John, the issue I was trying to clarify is the purpose of the washer between the thrust bearing and LS spool bearing - as in your photo:



The purpose of thrust bearings I understand - I use them regularly in my projects Smiley

Does the washer transfer the force (which acts on the thrust bearing) to the outside race of the spool bearing? Thereby removing the force from the inner race.

Yes, it has a larger ID than the Spool Bearing so that the inner race is free. It is important to note that washer is one third of the Thrust Bearing Assembly. On the other side from what you can see here is a groove (race) cut into the face of the washer (note it's thickness) that the balls of the next piece in the assembly (a sort of horizontal cage for the bearing) run. The washer on the other side of the cage has a corresponding race cut into it's face too. Its hidden, but note the washer seats flush to the cage because of the groove for the balls.

This is what allows the washers to spin freely. So it is not a case of simply freeing the inner race of the Spool Bearing. The part that does it has to spin freely too or as preset increases the handle would bind.

Sorry, not trying to assume you don't totally understand this, just trying to fill in any gaps in the knowledge for anyone that may read this in the future Smiley.

A simple thrust washer, cut to the right dimensions, will save the bearings from destructive axial loads. They just cause unfortunate handle binding which then becomes hard on the angler, and as I understand it, the reel becomes unusable at higher drag settings because a thrust washer won't spin freely with axial load.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 06:24:35 PM by johndtuttle » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 10:36:12 AM »

The part I was talking about is marked in red. Is it 'domed' like a belleville - spool side contacting the outer race - other side in contact with the thrust bearing but not the spool shaft. I already have a suitable thrust bearing - 6mm on one side and 6.2mm on the other. Where space permits I will be trying to copy this idea in another reel.

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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 05:09:20 PM »

Ah! Parts numbers are always most clear  Wink.

The schematic for the reel has a brilliant picture of the assembly:

http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/content/purefishing/407-TRQ25NLD2G

#8 is the crescent washer in question and it's shape (belleville like) tells us the intent is a more gradual transfer of force as we move down the chain rather than a rapid ramp up. If you use a shim, sometimes a crude bend is enough to accomplish this goal. My concern would be that you wouldn't get as smooth a drag curve as you would like unless all specifications were ideal but you may get something very workable.
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2015, 11:00:10 PM »

Thanks John for your patient and helpful reply.
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« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2015, 02:20:12 PM »

John, could you supply the link for the Penn Forum you mentioned?  Thanks.
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« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2015, 02:37:38 PM »

John, could you supply the link for the Penn Forum you mentioned?  Thanks.

here ya go: http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/forum/72-penn-fishing/

Tony and Tom are all over any post there during the week. Sometimes I post over the weekends to get people started in the right direction if a reel maintenance issue comes up that a DiY wants to solve.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 04:34:10 PM by johndtuttle » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2015, 03:17:22 PM »

John thank you once again for your patience - it is much appreciated.
In studying the Torque schematic(s) I notice 2 things:
1- The crescent washer and thrust bearing have the same part nos for the whole range Huh? Implying a common shaft diameter.
2 -The crescent washer, on the exploded thrust bearing assembly diagram, is showing the convex side of the washer pointing to the spool bearing. Is this correct? Your photo of the assembly seems to indicate the convex side pointing to the thrust bearing - which appears to make more sense to me - i.e. the force would be transferred to the outer race of the bearing removing any binding issues.
Is it me being stupid or have Penn got their schematic wrong?
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2015, 04:41:37 PM »

I take a picture or two here sometime today to help.
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2015, 05:08:24 PM »

Cheers my friend Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2015, 05:18:01 PM »

Thank you John!
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