Rod taper question

Started by maxpowers, February 20, 2014, 09:03:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

maxpowers

I want to start buying nicer customized rods instead of continuing to use Big 5 and off the shelf rods.  I have read John Tuttle's post regarding taper vs power.  Furthermore, when I go to the tackle shops, most of the high end west coast style rod are of the fast to extra fast taper which made sense for using on the rail, etc..  However I really do not like rail fishing as it seems to be almost like cheating.  I would rather fight the fish standing up.  I also know I cannot hang on to a fast taper 60-80 lbs rated rod with 25 lbs of drags for very long.  I tried this at home by pulling and reeling against my truck trailer hitch and is gassed after 15 minutes of doing so.  Would I be better off with much slower (parabolic) rods but give up the lifting power and line clearing capability of the fast taper rod (the line is further from the boat to minimize abrasion)?

Thanks everyone.

Ron Jones

I'm going to put forward what really no one wants to hear (least of all me,) but sometimes a bit of time in the gym helps a lot. Changing to a shorter rod that has a more consistent taper will help. A fighting belt will help trwmwndously. In the end though, you are trying to make it a more fair fight. Probably to feel a little more Hemingway in your biceps, which I find admirable. But in the end, you are only as strong as you are and their is only one way to change that.
Ron
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

Newell Nut

I fish with an older guy that is whipped after catching a 10 lb fish and then he sits in the cabin until time to go home. I fish with another guy that is 89 and has exercised all his life like myself and he fishes hard fights all sizes. He only sits when we moving to another spot. More people need to get off their butts and exercise. TV worship will destroy you.

Jeri

Hi Max,

I would concur with the suggestion of using a rod belt, it gives a lot of power back to the human body, but below is an idea to help the actual rod design.

Back in the early days of 'stand-up' fishing, when the early 'fast taper' rods were being developed. We were looking at this style of fishing, and how at the time it might be appropriate for some of the fishing we were doing in the UK. The leverage advantages were obvious, but all the early models of blanks were very high line rating, much higher than the maximum 30lb that we were using in the UK for the majority of our domestic fishing.

What we had been using alongside that fish were traditional trolling blanks built with the uni-butts from companies like Aftco, and ending up with rods about 7'-6" long, certainly not 'stand-up'. By way of an experiment we took one of the lighter international trolling blanks, and built the rod straight onto the blank – no uni-butt. What transpired was a very 'mellow' stand-up rod, the softer action of the slower taper was less 'tippy' than traditional stand-up, but it still retained all the leverage benefits of that style.

The traditional IGFA trolling blank is about 63" long, and usual 'stand-up' blanks are about 66" long, so apart from this slightly shorter length, they act as a 'slow' version of 'stand-up'. Might this be the solution you are looking for. Additionally, the trolling blanks don't have that 'fold over' action on the tip once fish are hooked up, so the length stays more consistent during the fight.

You might have to go and test out a number of blanks to find the right rating, as even a 12lb class IGFA blank has plenty of lifting power when used in this short format, and effectively becomes a 20lb class blank. Then there are options of looking for IGFA trolling blanks in carbon, rather than glass, which will have a more responsive action due to the material, rather than the taper of the mandrel. The carbon concept gives you the option of fast material over a slow taper mandrel.

There used to be a company in Florida that had a huge selection of blanks, if I am not mistaken; in the Miami area. We bought several of their blanks, and took them home to the UK for building; but age and the fact that the brain cell with their name on – died – it was over 20 years ago. They did have both glass and carbon options of IGFA trolling blanks.

This concept of using a blank from a slightly non-related field is always a serious option, you just have to find the resource to be able to test the idea.


Hope that helps.

Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri



maxpowers

I am asking this because I am very intrigue by the rest of the world use of lighter parabolic jigging rods and spinning rods to tame some of the world's biggest, baddest fish while the West Coast style fishing is still dominated by mostly heavier, fast taper type rods and railing to tame the bigger fish.  On fish up to 40-60 lbs I have no problem fishing west coast style with the faster taper style rod. Plus it is very fun to do so.  However, once we are entering the 100+ lbs types fish, the heavy rod and fast taper along with drags in the teens to low 20's are hard to do so stand up style.  Railing seem to be the preferred method then.  The parabolic type rod seem to allow much more forgiveness to the angler at the higher drags at the expense of lifting power and line clearance.  The issue with the parabolic rod is the almost inability to lift the fish when it is straight up  and down fishing.

Keta

#5
I use fast and slow rods but for strong fish I've found a faster rod helps keep the fish pointed in your direction.  When a fish is heading toward you it's easier to land.   My legs were crushed (I have some trouble with them and live with constant pain) before I discovered LR fishing and all of my cow YFT were caught using 5-1/2 to 6-1/2' fast rods.

Not too bad for an old crippled "fat guy" using a fast rods.











Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

maxpowers

Lee,

I agree that at some point I have to have a heavy rig like a 2x4 and just railed the cow in.  For the 100-200 lbs fish I still would like to fish it sans the rail if possible.  I just don't think I can do so with a XXH or even an XXXH with 25 lbs of drags for very long.

Keta

Get a good belt and plate.  I'm not sure I can fish my 2x4 but it sure looks nice.  a 1x3 might be a better choice for me.  The rail is your friend though.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

SoCalAngler

#8
maxpowers,

You also should take into account that fishing the rail is relatively new to our west coast style of fishing. It mostly started to take off around 7-8 years ago and has become just one styles of fighting large fish. You have to remember many many more large fish have been landed not using the rail or a fighting chair over the years here on the left coast.

You can read all you want about taper, length, actions and being more or less parabolic but when selecting a rod what it should boil down too is how the rod feels to you. For me that means pulling on blanks side by side of one another to get the one that feels right to me for the test I'm looking to use. Fortunately I have several very well stocked tackle shops within a 30 minutes drive of my house but I know others aren't as luckly. Until anybody puts a bend into a rod they will never know how it feels.

Makule

There are several instructive comments mentioned.  In particular, I agree with Lee in that a faster taper rod tends to give better control of the fish.  More importantly is what SoCalAngler advised: 
The rod must suit the person using it.  Some big, strong, individuals can handle very stiff rods regardless of the taper.  Smaller, or less strong, individuals (like myself) need more "cushion" in order to last the fight. 

In my youth, I used very stiff, slow taper/action rods (Lamiglas fiberglass) and even then it took a lot out of me to bring a big fish to gaff (and I was quite strong then, having engaged in weight training). 

These days, my rods are much softer at the tip, have a fast taper/action, with a very stiff butt section.  The soft tips section has enough "give" to reduce the length of the rod (i.e., amount of leverage I need to work against), and the very stiff butt section provides the handle with which to lift.  With a slower taper/action rod, the rod bends over reducing the length somewhat, but trying to lift causes the rod to respond more slowly (because the butt section is not stiff enough to provide a lifting handle).  The rods are selected based on what feels correct in terms of what I can handle.  Certainly, there are much stiffer and much softer rods to select from, but it would result in either causing excessive stress on my physical capabilities (in the former), or be totally useless for raising a heavy load (in the latter).  Either way, it would not be a pleasant experience, and probably be much less efficient in terms of landing large fish.

Go to a shop with a spring scale.  Pull against different rods to the same weight and see if you notices any difference.  Intuitively, the same weight is the same weight regardless of which rod it is.  In practice, it may be quite different.
I used to be in a constant state of improvement.  Now I'm in a constant state of renovation.

maxpowers

Quote from: Makule on February 22, 2014, 04:00:53 AM
There are several instructive comments mentioned.  In particular, I agree with Lee in that a faster taper rod tends to give better control of the fish.  More importantly is what SoCalAngler advised: 
The rod must suit the person using it.  Some big, strong, individuals can handle very stiff rods regardless of the taper.  Smaller, or less strong, individuals (like myself) need more "cushion" in order to last the fight. 

In my youth, I used very stiff, slow taper/action rods (Lamiglas fiberglass) and even then it took a lot out of me to bring a big fish to gaff (and I was quite strong then, having engaged in weight training). 

These days, my rods are much softer at the tip, have a fast taper/action, with a very stiff butt section.  The soft tips section has enough "give" to reduce the length of the rod (i.e., amount of leverage I need to work against), and the very stiff butt section provides the handle with which to lift.  With a slower taper/action rod, the rod bends over reducing the length somewhat, but trying to lift causes the rod to respond more slowly (because the butt section is not stiff enough to provide a lifting handle).  The rods are selected based on what feels correct in terms of what I can handle.  Certainly, there are much stiffer and much softer rods to select from, but it would result in either causing excessive stress on my physical capabilities (in the former), or be totally useless for raising a heavy load (in the latter).  Either way, it would not be a pleasant experience, and probably be much less efficient in terms of landing large fish.

Go to a shop with a spring scale.  Pull against different rods to the same weight and see if you notices any difference.  Intuitively, the same weight is the same weight regardless of which rod it is.  In practice, it may be quite different.

Someone over at 360tuna did a very crude test but it showed how much effort is needed by the angler in order to exert an exact line tension on the fish with a stiffer faster taper rod as compare to a softer parabolic rod.  He essentially tested how much effort the angler exert on 14 lbs of drag at the rod tip.  For the stiffer, faster taper rod, the angler have to exert over 25 to 30% more effort to exert the same kind drags on the fish.  For someone like me at 20 lbs of drags at the tip I would not be able to fish the rod for more than a few minutes unless I use the rails the change the lever.

Makule

Quoteit showed how much effort is needed by the angler in order to exert an exact line tension on the fish with a stiffer faster taper rod as compare to a softer parabolic rod.  He essentially tested how much effort the angler exert on 14 lbs of drag at the rod tip.  For the stiffer, faster taper rod, the angler have to exert over 25 to 30% more effort to exert the same kind drags on the fish.

This is the reason that the fast taper rod needs to have a softer tip.  The tip much bend to reduce the leverage against the angler, or the length of the rod will work against the angler.
I used to be in a constant state of improvement.  Now I'm in a constant state of renovation.