4+1 drag for 113?

[johnachak]

I keep reading about all these different drag kits. I find the drags on the 113's to be lacking. All I do is add 1 metal keyed washer and one 6-60 HT 100 washer which is thinner than the 6-113's and I get much more drag and when loosened up, there is almost free play. It seems to be a win-win. The stack ends up being 3 6-113's, three keyed, one eared and one 6-60 (Not in that order of course). I haven't put a scale on it but it seems to be stronger than the stock 3 stack for sure. I got the idea (or should I say I stole it) from a reel I took in for service that had that configuration with wire line on the spool. I was wondering how a stock 113 could handle a wire line / umbrella setup for Bass.

[crackerman]

Later 113h used a 5+1 drag stack. Main gears are the same depth.

[Bryan Young]

You should be able to get a 5+1 stack in that gear.

[johnachak]

When I tried the 5+1, there was no loose setting for the drag. To do 5+1 I would have to order thinner washers ( an expensive set ). The 4+1 sticks up out of the gear as it is. Is there any real advantage for 5+1 over 4+1 for bottom fishing or chumming for Stripers / Blues (My personal reel)? Is there more of an advantage with the 5+1 setup for trolling umbrella rigs (My friends reel)? The OEM 3+1 setup is anemic. I personally bought my USA made 113 in a combo being cleared out at Westmarine in 2011 and it had the 3+1. I haven't seen a 113 with a 5+1 yet. 113H's with the 5+1 stock yes.

[Alto Mare]

You must be talking about the 113 and not the 113H. I also like my reels to start soft, you could get there by sanding down your spacer sleeve. You could also try these:
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/9-60.aspx
On the 5+1 stack your second eared washer should be sitting in the gear, usually even with the top lip, you will then have one carbon fiber and one keyed on top of it. a 4+1 configuration is the same as 3+1 ...no additional drag.

Make sure you replace the stock gear sleeve with a stainless steel one.
You might be better off with a 113H.

"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

[johnachak]

I am talking about a 113, not a 113H, I am just trying to give my friend some additional drag on his 113 which this did. When he gave it to me to service the drag was shot, but it already had the 4+1 in it. I merely changed out the HT100's. The stock 3+1 actually bottoms out with relatively little wear. With the 4+1, you can crank down more. Using: cf, keyed,cf,eared,cf,keyed, it almost bottoms out with fresh washers. My own 113 is the same. Tightened down there is about 1/32" before it bottoms out. I know that with just some use it will certainly bottom out. If I add a cf,keyed pair to the top of the stack, it sits up from the gear a little. An eared washer would not be in the stack either unless I doubled up by going; cf,key,cf,ear,cf,ear,cf,key. Is that what you are suggesting? That the eared must be in the gear to add drag? If the 4+1 allows me to tighten down more before it gets close to bottoming out, how is that not increasing the drag?

[johnachak]

Later 113h used a 5+1 drag stack. Main gears are the same depth.

This is 113, not 113H. That is a much bigger gear that comes stock with a 5+1.

[Alto Mare]

As Bryan mentioned above, you should be able to place 5 washers in that reel.
The configuration should be CF-Keyed-CF-Eared-CF-Keyed-CF-Eared-CF-Keyed-Tension Spring-Spacer Sleeve-Star.
The Spacer Sleeve will help adjusting the drags, if  the star doesn't have much travel, cut down the spacer sleeve a little, usually 1/16" will do.
A Carbon Fiber washer will not produce drag unless in has a metal washer under it that doesn't rotate, The eared washers don't rotate. Putting two eared washer one on top of the other is worthless, starting your stack with a Carbon Fiber washer followed with an eared washer is also worthless.
The last Carbon Fiber washer on top of the gear will produce drag, even though it's sitting out of the gear. Anything above that last washer will only be a spacer... no drag.

[Ron Jones]

I think I know what is going on, and yes, the 4+1 works in this instance. If you are working on an old 113 it has a short spacer sleeve to fit the asbestos drag disks. When you upgrade to CF, any CF, there is much more room in the drag stack and the star bottoms out with not much drag on a 3+1 stack. Adding anything to the stack will get the star off the bottom of the sleeve and increase available drag to the 12-15 pounds that the 3 stack should see. The extra washers aren't providing any extra drag because they are spinning with the top keyed washer. If you use a 5+1 HT-100 drag on the 6-66 gear the 3+1 asbestos sleeve is often to long and you can't back the star off enough to get down to zero drag. If you sand/ file just a few hairs off the sleeve your 5+1 drag will loosen up when backed off and give you great max drag numbers. Remember that the 113 has a skinny gear sleeve and if you go to the 5+1 you should put a SS sleeve in it. If you stay with the 3+1 with extra washers (what you have now) you will be fine with the brass until it rounds off as they sometimes do, which is why Alan designed them in the first place.

Hope this helps
Ron

[Ron Jones]

Sorry Sal, we must have been typing at the same time. I know this issue happens because NorCal Pescador SAVED MY LIFE on the SOA trip because he let me use an extra 113H drag washer to make up room.

Ron

[crackerman]

The old 113 uses the same 3disc drag stack that the 112 and 111, as well as longbeach 67 and 68 use. Following alans 2/0 tutorial, it is an easy upgrade path.

Or, if you dont want to spend the money to upgrade all of it(around 90 bucks depending on what you want) you can typically find a newer 113h or 113hlw that offer a high gear and better handle, as well as a 5 disc drag setup for 35-90 bucks.

[Alto Mare]

Ron, if you had a longer spacer sleeve you didn't have to open that reel, Rob should have had that with him .
We 're trying to let johnachak know that a 5+1 stack will work in that reel with no issues.

johnachak, get yourself two sets of these:
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6-60SP.aspx

Scotts HT-100  fiber washers are .80mm thick, your 4th eared washer will sit flush with the main gear and that's what you want. Don't worry about the next  fiber washer and metal keyed washer being out of the gear, they'll do just fine.
For $15, you'll end up with an extra keyed washer and carbon fiber washer.


"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

[johnachak]

I think I know what is going on, and yes, the 4+1 works in this instance. If you are working on an old 113 it has a short spacer sleeve to fit the asbestos drag disks. When you upgrade to CF, any CF, there is much more room in the drag stack and the star bottoms out with not much drag on a 3+1 stack. Adding anything to the stack will get the star off the bottom of the sleeve and increase available drag to the 12-15 pounds that the 3 stack should see. The extra washers aren't providing any extra drag because they are spinning with the top keyed washer. If you use a 5+1 HT-100 drag on the 6-66 gear the 3+1 asbestos sleeve is often to long and you can't back the star off enough to get down to zero drag. If you sand/ file just a few hairs off the sleeve your 5+1 drag will loosen up when backed off and give you great max drag numbers. Remember that the 113 has a skinny gear sleeve and if you go to the 5+1 you should put a SS sleeve in it. If you stay with the 3+1 with extra washers (what you have now) you will be fine with the brass until it rounds off as they sometimes do, which is why Alan designed them in the first place.

Hope this helps
Ron

Noyb, you hit it right on the head. The 4+1 gives back the original 3+1 (with the fat washers) full drag without bottoming out. I am guessing 12-15 lb. drag seems about right. If the brass sleeve rounds out (I don't see why it would if it hasn't so far and he uses it for wire line) we'll deal with that situation. I really appreciate all the responses gentlemen, thank you.

[johnachak]

The old 113 uses the same 3disc drag stack that the 112 and 111, as well as longbeach 67 and 68 use. Following alans 2/0 tutorial, it is an easy upgrade path.

Or, if you dont want to spend the money to upgrade all of it(around 90 bucks depending on what you want) you can typically find a newer 113h or 113hlw that offer a high gear and better handle, as well as a 5 disc drag setup for 35-90 bucks.

This is a friend's reel in for service. He wanted the drag replaced, etc. not an upgrade. The 4+1 was in there when I got it. He would probably have a heart attack if I told him I wanted to do a $90 upgrade on his 30+ year old reel.

[johnachak]

I am guessing, from what you all are telling me, that I can get the same result using a longer spacer sleeve. I might go that route next service. I thought the spacer sleeve (This was originally a 3 asbestos washer drag) looked rather short compared to my newer and more modern (3+1 C/F drag) 113.