Senator 114H issues - please help!!

[Jason Groombridge]

G'day Guys,

I bought a 114H with the intention of cleaning it up and fishing it. It was pretty rough when I got it but I thought it might clean up OK.

I have a few issues with the reel. The bearing cup in the right side plate seems loose. The bearing was not seized so I don't think the whole lot has been turning in the frame and slogged the frame out. Do they need to be tapped in or should they just sit there? I think this is the cause of some gear noise as the gears are not being held in correct alignment.

I am also unsure of the end arrangement of the drag. I am sure I have the drag washers in the right order, I just cant work out where the tension springs should be. I also think this reel may have been worked on by someone who has put it back together incorrectly. So what I have is a plain flat SS washer (not keyed) on top of the last keyed drag washer, a thick tension washer, the spacing sleeve, the drag star, a thinner tension washer, then the handle. I think there should be another tension washer between the spacing sleeve and the drag star. Has anyone got a photo of the correct setup and also any information on which way the tension washer (or washers) should be oriented?

The drag also feels really rubbish. All the CF washers looked OK and I gave them a dose of Cal's grease but it feels like it is grating. Should I just replace the CF washers and be done with it?

Any help greatly appreciated. I haven't worked on a Senator before. I've done a couple of Sealine 600H's and 50H's and quite a few spinners but never the Senator.

Cheers

Jason

[johndtuttle]

The trouble is that it all can be normal or need fixing depending on severity. 

1. If the bearing has no side to side movement, just some in and out play, it will not affect gear alignment. Once you get the spool adjusted (just the smallest side to side play when in gear) you should be fine.

2. Drag arrangement at the top of the stack sounds perfectly fine.

3. Drag may need to be cleaned and regreased, sounds like some particle contaminant is in there. Be sure to check the washer under the sleeve too.

4. Some measure of gear noise may be within normal limits as well. What are the gears made of? The older steel ones always made noise. Check your bridge and make sure the gear stud has no side to side play. The brass plate fatigues over time.

So, measure of degree is the key with all of these. These older designs are intended to have "loose tolerances" and keep on ticking. They don't ever really settle into quiet and smooth as butter, in my experience.

[Shark Hunter]

Here is the Schematic from scott's Jason.
https://www.mysticparts.com/Assets/images/pennparts/schematics/114h_post.pdf
If you have the steel gears, make sure you grease them up good, it will help with the grinding. Make sure they are clean of any old crud. If you want a really nice set of gears, the Ones from Black pearl are really Nice! I know on your non handle bearing side. there are some small tabs that hold it in, after you unscrew it, bend these ever so slightly inward and it will hold it in better.
If you are still having trouble, just ask. Some pictures will help too.
Daron


"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

[Alto Mare]

The bearing cup is supposed to be lose, check the gear teeth for any wear using a magnifying glass, any shiny spots could show wear. The gears on the 114H's are usually extremely smooth, steel or brass. Try a new set of carbon fiber washer and see if that helps any.
Your spacer needs a tension spring, it will go right under the star above the spacer.
That tension spring is much thicker than the one you have for under the handle, you could actually toss that one if you wanted to.
When I say the bearing cup is supposed to be lose, I don't mean going in and out. If the cup goes in when you press on it, you will need to center the spool by tightening the left side bearing. if that doesn't help, you might need shims.

[Jason Groombridge]

Thanks for the reply guys,

I had a better look at the gears (I don't know why I didn't notice this before) and the pinion looks like it is plain steel and is quite pitted, hence the gear noise. The brass main gear looks OK so I think I'll just whack plenty of grease in there and fish it. If it annoys me too much then I'll change the pinion later.

The right side bearing has no in and out play but a bit of sideways movement. I guess its OK as the gear noise is I think mainly attributable to the crusty pinion gear.

I have attached a photo of the drag setup. So on the drag sleeve you can see the top keyed washer and the slightly smaller diameter plain flat washer on top of it. When I pulled the reel apart the washer on bottom right was on top of the drag stack but I think it should be the washer on the bottom left that goes there and the other one on top of the spacer sleeve. Does this sound right? The washer bottom left is domed whilst the one bottom right is curved (I hope you know what I mean). Which way should the curved washer go? I'm guessing it needs to be sharp edges towards the drag star.

Cheers

Jason

[Shark Hunter]

I'm not sure about that smaller washer on top of your stack, but I don't think it belongs. That main gear looks like it needs replaced. The teeth look sharp. PM me your address and I'll send you a set of stock gears. I have several sets that are like new since I have Black Pearl gears in mine. Scotts sells a Drag kit with all new washers and drags for less than 12 bucks.

[Alto Mare]

I have attached a photo of the drag setup. So on the drag sleeve you can see the top keyed washer and the slightly smaller diameter plain flat washer on top of it. When I pulled the reel apart the washer on bottom right was on top of the drag stack but I think it should be the washer on the bottom left that goes there and the other one on top of the spacer sleeve. Does this sound right? The washer bottom left is domed whilst the one bottom right is curved (I hope you know what I mean). Which way should the curved washer go? I'm guessing it needs to be sharp edges towards the drag star.

Cheers

Jason

Jason, if that last washer on top of the stack is the same size as the washer you're showing on the left or a little larger, you will be ok. That washer at times is used as a spacer to take up some extra room. The spring washer on the left is a Belleville and goes on last, you will then follow with the spacer sleeve, tension spring and star. That should work just fine.
I would take Shark Hunter's offer on the gears, but you could clean those if you wanted to and take it from there.

[Jason Groombridge]

Shark Hunter, thankyou for your offer, PM sent.

Alto, the washer on the top of my stack in the photo is smaller than the belleville. I think I will remove this smaller washer. Should the tension washer above the spacer go sharp edges towards the star or away from the star?

As a matter of interest, why is the reel designed with a bearing cup that is "loose". Surely any sideways movement of this bearing will lead to misalignment of gears? Or is the amount so small that it doesn't matter?

Cheers

Jason

[Alto Mare]

Shark Hunter, thankyou for your offer, PM sent.

Alto, the washer on the top of my stack in the photo is smaller than the belleville. I think I will remove this smaller washer. Should the tension washer above the spacer go sharp edges towards the star or away from the star?

As a matter of interest, why is the reel designed with a bearing cup that is "loose". Surely any sideways movement of this bearing will lead to misalignment of gears? Or is the amount so small that it doesn't matter?

Cheers

Jason

Yes if the washer is smaller get rid of it. Sounds like you have more movement with that bearing cup than I thought, I meant  little movement. Those slide in loosely, not screwed in as the left cup.
If the cup is ok, you might need a new plate, I've never seen this issue before and I also don't know how much movement you really have, any way you could post a pic?
The tension spring will work either way, I like to place the sharp edges down, so the star doesn't get scratched.