Penn 14/0 Parts History...Spool, Gear Set, Bridge, etc.

[Tightlines667]

Can anyone provide any insight into the history of this particular Penn 14/0 reel spool?  It appears to be a chromed bronze 3-piece, but is of a different design then the other 4 spool types I have seen in 12/0s and 14/0s.

[Tightlines667]

This is clearly the older 3-piece spool, I guess the interesting thing about the 14/0 one is that the right side spindle (head plate spool shaft) is longer, and the shaft fits the bearings.  I am assuming this spool must fit with the newer 14/0 side plates, and marries correctly within the newer USA- made reels.  Guess the chromed style bridge and hardened moly-coated steel main gear threw me a bit here.  I obtained this reel from a customer who complained that the spool was starting to rub, which he believes was due to a warped spool.  Having been successful at correcting these symptoms on a number of other 12/0 and 14/0 reels, I thought of giving this one a go.  If I can get it into good working order, I plan to sell it.  If not, it will be a parts reel.  I'm going to clean it up first, then check the spool to see if it is obviously warped, check the side plates for warping, and replace or repair the slightly warped/twisted stand (hopefully the culprit here).  I hope this isn't my first encounter with the dreaded '3-piece spool spread' issue.  I'll keep you posted.

I am always a bit confused about the various design changes in the gears, spools, bridges, side plates, and handles in these larger senators.  I questioned some of the commonly found, and not so commonly found ones in a previous thread.


I would like to learn more.  I don't think it is just a random mismatch/hodge-podge of parts.  I'd like to be able to recognize era-correct matches, be able to age a real (to timeframe), and recognize rarer/collectible larger senator reels when 'in hand'.  Any insight here would be appreciated.

[Tightlines667]

Mr. Mike Cacioppo spoke to the history of the ball bearings vs.  bushings in another post...

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=11733.60

Quote
"
This is always an interesting question. The 14 & 16/O's were always built with the spool running in Ball Bearings. That goes back to the late 1930's. The 10 & 12/O changed over to Ball Bearings in 1955 with the introduction of the heavy one piece Bronze spool.
               The 9/O is the odd ball of the group. The bronze spool was used on the 9/O from 1957 but Penn left the sleeve bearings in place on the 9/O for many years. It was not until 1970 that Penn decided to run the bronze one piece spool of the 9/O in Ball Bearings. So when looking to replace a bronze one piece spool in a 9/O, you have to watch what spool you use. The shaft on the head plate side of a post 1970 Senator 9/O is much longer than a earlier model even thought both models use the one piece bronze spool.
               
               The rule applies to the 10 & 12/O but in a different way. If you want to upgrade a 10 or 12/O reel with a Bronze spool and that reel was built with sleeve bearings and a three piece spool, the upgrade will not work. A bronze one piece spool will not fit in any 12/O older than 1955 because of the earlier sleeve bearings. Ball bearings call for a longer head plate spool shaft.
"

This is good stuff!  

I am still wondering about the other pieces to the larger senators puzzle.

[Tightlines667]

Sure enough the 14/0 3-piece spool turned out to have some uneven spreading to these side parts.  I measured about 7/10ths of a mm difference in spread at the worst point.  The spool shows some noticable wobble when viewed from the top.  But it is perfectly true to the shaft which is straight as well, no up and down wobble.  I spent about 5 hours reconditioning this reel.  Replaced the bearings (and packed em), put a new drag stack (metal and CF/greased w/Cal's), straightened the slightly warped stand, new spring washers, new under gear washer, and some new stand, post, and rod brace screws.  I was able to use 3-0.2mm shims on the right side, and 1-0.2 shim on the left to ensure adequate spool clearance once assembled.  The bridge and gear stack are in good condition overall.  The handle knob is a bit worn (starting to get a bit loose), but is still in good working condition.  The reel appeared to be working good overall even with the noticable distortion/apparent wobble in the outter spool.  It clears the plates/rings just fine until....

I spooled it up with 850yds of new grey OPI 130lb mono under pressure on the machine.   

The spool spear further and distorted to the point where it is binding about every 1/2 turn (of the spool).  I'm not sure this is easily correctable.  I've read the other threads on the topic.  So I guess I need to find an old broken down 14/0 (possibly with a cracked side plate or something), or just a used spool, to make the reel whole again.  I think she still has some good years left in her.  Otherwise I guess I can condem her to the parts graveyard and chalk it up to experience. 

I guess my magic reel restoration powers do have there limits...

[Tightlines667]

More pics...

[Maxed Out]

The main reason penn switched to one piece cast spool is the 3 piece spools would sometimes distort under a load. Perhaps that is why your spool has a look of a wobble, but is still straight on the shaft. I would not trust it to hold together under a load

[Tightlines667]

Yea now that I spooled it up w/130 the distortion has gotten worse .
Not sure if this reel should still be fished.  I may have to try to find a used spool (new ones are $250..ouch!), or just keep her as a parts reel.

[Maxed Out]

That looks like a non part numbered pre-1950 14/0 spool. In any condition those are worth something to any collector that has a pre 1950 14/0 with a toasted spool, cause the old line they used would destroy the plating on the spool, and yours looks bad, but it is in above average condition for a spool from that era.....so, in other words, don't toss the spool, it will work fine for a 1940's display reel that won't get used.

[Tightlines667]

Thanks for the info and advice!  If anyone is interested in this reel Or just the spool as a collectors piece please let me know.  Or if anyone has a one piece 14/0 bronze spool available to complete the reel.  I might be interested. 

John

[Tightlines667]

Update...

The reel sold today on Ebay for $287+shipping to an enthusiastic collector.  It will not he fished, though I am unsure if he has an appropriate plith for this reel.

[Dominick]

True you need a big plinth.     Dominick

[Penn Chronology]

Can anyone provide any insight into the history of this particular Penn 14/0 reel spool?  It appears to be a chromed bronze 3-piece, but is of a different design then the other 4 spool types I have seen in 12/0s and 14/0s.[/quot

I see the problem is solved. The old spools should all be retired to the collectors shelf. They were very inferior to what came after them, but I guess that it how all things go. Trial and error. I remember a first generation 14/O I had that was loaded with old 50 thread linen line, it looked like tie down rope. I removed all the line and broke the reel down. Holding the spool by the spindle I could actually spin one of the spool sides like a wheel. Of course that reel became a display only reel. Those old spools were inferior but they were in production for over 15 years. Here's a 1948 16/O in the original box:

                 They were great reels for the money and they were used all over the world. Many record fish were taken with these old reels even with the inferior spools:

                  I would think the 16/O three piece spool was even more susceptible to the kind of problem you had with your 14/O.
                  It is interesting how Penn began incorporating these spools into the 14 and 16/O models. Around 1956, the one piece bronze spool became a piece of optional equipment for the 14 and 16/O reels. For an extra 25 bucks in your buying price, you could have your 16 or 14/O reel with the once piece bronze spool. Somewhere around 1960, the one piece bronze spool became standard equipment for these models. 

[Alto Mare]

Beautiful reel Mike, is it yours?  I might have to pay a visit one day, and share some homemade wine.
I had two 9/0 's in excellent shape with the lighthouse boxes and sold them both a while back . The boxes were pretty bad though.

[Penn Chronology]

Beautiful reel Mike, is it yours?  I might have to pay a visit one day, and share some homemade wine

Hello Sal,

I was in possession of this 1948 16/O long enough to photo it and then ship it out. It now lives in Brisbane, Australia along with many other phenomenal Penn collectibles. Aussies love Penn reels.

But I do own a rare package, first year, 1938 Senator 113--4/O in a Lighthouse box that I would never part with. It is in very nice condition and is made with all German Silver parts. Some how the chrome takes on a different tint when the base metal is German Silver rather than brass.





                This one always raises eyebrows. It is the only Senator to have used the waffle clicker button. The 1938 model is very rare because of the handle and when combined with the correct box can only be a 1938 model because of the price. This 1938 4/O price marked box was marked at $17.50 in 1938 only. In 1939 the price went to $18.50.

So, unfortunately I cannot share this 1948 Senator 16/O with you but sharing some homemade wine sounds like a distinct possibility.

[broadway]

Mike, That 16/0 is unbelievable! I've never seen a 16/0 in a lighthouse box.
Sal, Mike lives in Long Island if I'm not mistaken.
Thanks for showing,
Dom