Senator 114H drag problem.

[trond_solem]

I was replacing the main gear in my 114H reel with a steel one when I noticed that it was difficult to pull the old gear off the gear sleeve.
Closer inspection revealed  that the first keyed steel washer had deformed the gear sleeve a bit. It had deformed the end of the flats by pushing them so they formed a ridge on the sleeve. Some careful work with a small file and the problem was solved. I made the flat part a bit longer so that the first keyed washer no longer would stop against the end of the flats. I assembled the reel and tested drag. Hey, max drag just increased by 5 lb! This mens that the first drag washer hadn't been adding much to the drag before this modification.
With the star turned down quite hard I was able to get 32lb smooth drag. Not bad for a 5+1 drag stack. I could probably got a pound or two more by using both hands to tighten the drag star, but I suppose the drag would be inconsistent then.

Next time you rebuild your drag, check that the first keyed washer doesn't stop against the end of the flat area before it excerts any pressure on the first drag washer. I don't know if this may be a problem on other reels, but I am going to have a look at this possible problem every time I open a reel.

-Trond.

[Alto Mare]

Thanks for sharing Trond, yes that first washer gets lots of pressure. My issue was with the carbon fiber washer.
I've noticed the first carbon fiber washer on one of my smaller reels shred, this was last year and I've been keeping an eye on it ever since.
It could have been a fluke, but I do think that a .45mm carbon fiber washer might be too thin there.
Most of my personal reels get laminated carbon fiber washers, our jigmasters are not generating 14 lbs of drag anymore, most are generating over 20 lbs.

Sal

[foakes]

Once again, Sal is right on --

That first drag washer gets chewed up and frayed sometimes, if used hard.

I haven't really shared this with anyone -- but when I see that in a reel I am servicing -- I have been known to change up the drag stack rotation by putting one of these new old thick washers in that number one spot.

It is pictured as the thick grey one on the left.

Grease it as you would the CF -- provided there is room for this thicker washer -- this generally eliminates the problem and increases the drag number.

Particularly do this in the mid size reels like 500s, and similar size -- but it also works really well in the 4s, 6s, and 9s.

Best,

Fred

[trond_solem]

You both miss the problem. The first drag washer was just fine. The washer under the gear was also fine.
The problem is that the flat parts of the gear sleeve is too short.

When the first metal washer bottoms out on the sleeve, the first drag washer in the gera doesn't get any pressure and is realy doing nothing.

[fIsHsTiiCkS]

You both miss the problem. The first drag washer was just fine. The washer under the gear was also fine.
The problem is that the flat parts of the gear sleeve is too short.

When the first metal washer bottoms out on the sleeve, the first drag washer in the gera doesn't get any pressure and is realy doing nothing.

The Gen II gear sleeves should help with that issue

[trond_solem]

You both miss the problem. The first drag washer was just fine. The washer under the gear was also fine.
The problem is that the flat parts of the gear sleeve is too short.

When the first metal washer bottoms out on the sleeve, the first drag washer in the gera doesn't get any pressure and is realy doing nothing.

The Gen II gear sleeves should help with that issue

Yes, they do.
The original brass sleeves may have this problem. Ccheck for it when servicing a reel.

[Alto Mare]

I understood what you meant Trond, I just wanted to mention that the carbon fiber washer as the first washer in the stack is too thin. This is why I said my issue was with the carbon fiber washer in my first comment.
There are so many kits available today, they're just too thin. The fix would be a thicker washer to start the stack, as Fred mentioned, or lowering the flats on the gear sleeve.
From seeing what happens to that first washer, I would go with the first option.The first carbon fiber washer needs to be no smaller than .80mm.
It would be easy to add another of the thin carbon fiber washers on top, but I would be more comfortable with a ticker washer there.
This information about that first washer was sent to Bryan from me, over a year ago, I told Bryan that I had concerns about that first washer, but I also told him that I've only seen it once. We decided to keep an eye on it, so here we are.
Sal

[Keta]

Last month I ran into this same problem and have the washer on my desk.   I use a thick CF and keyed metal washer on the bottom of my drag stacks to keep the ears of the bottom eared washer, the second metal washer, from bottoming out on the groves in the gear. 

BTW I like your CAD work, my CAD program is not that good.

[trond_solem]

Last month I ran into this same problem and have the washer on my desk.   I use a thick CF and keyed metal washer on the bottom of my drag stacks to keep the ears of the bottom eared washer, the second metal washer, from bottoming out on the groves in the gear. 

BTW I like your CAD work, my CAD program is not that good.

What's interesting here is that the drag is stock setup. Never replaced as far as I know. Stock (almost) flat steel washers and HT-100 drags.
I just replaced the under-gear fiber washer with a HT-100 of about the same thickness or slightly thicker.
Still the first keyed washer bottomed out on the end of the flats. Strange, but problem is solved.
I will open my 9/0 reels and have a look at them too. They may have the same problem.
A generation 2 SS gear sleeve will solve the problem for all future, but the brass sleeves work ok for now.

- Trond.

[foakes]

Thanks Trond --

Yes, Sal and I knew exactly what you were referring to -- but Sal brought up another issue in the same drag stack area that may also be of interest while addressing your original issue.

With the old, thick, heavy drags in some of the older Senators -- before we started using CFs so much -- this was never a problem -- because the bottom washer started out at a higher level -- and the metal washers were thicker too.

Yes, the new system will eliminate this problem -- but when I am servicing a client's reel, they generally do not want to spend that much money -- they just want the reel to work and catch fish -- they do not care how you do it -- they just want to use it.

This is how we all learn and progress on this site -- one idea builds on itself, then other similar issues are also discussed.  Your last CAD drawing and clarification was excellent to help explain to others exactly what you were referring to.

This site is made up of some folks way ahead of us in technical expertise -- as well as new folks just starting out who cannot picture what we are talking about sometimes.  Your excellent CAD clarification really is helpful to everyone.

Some of us may be at higher levels of reel mechanical understanding and knowledge -- but we all need to let our ladder down near the ground -- so that others can climb up, as well.

That is how we all share, progress, and gain more knowledge.

For me, it is gratifying to see a new member come along -- with little reel knowledge -- then within a few months, they sometimes know as much as a person who has been working on reels for 10 years, or more.

Best,

Fred

[Alto Mare]

Very well spoken Fred...as usual  .

Trond, may I ask what the washer for under the main gear looks like on that reel?


Sal

[trond_solem]

Very well spoken Fred...as usual  .

Trond, may I ask what the washer for under the main gear looks like on that reel?


Sal

Like brand new.
It's a HT-100 washer. No sign of abuse.
It may be the case that this reel originaly had 3 thick drag washers and someone replaced them with HT-100 drags sometime.

Trond

[Alto Mare]

Is that carbon washer at least .82mm in thickness?
By the way, not related to above ... well it could be. that washer would do a much better job if it was a Delrin/Acetal washer, usually the .031" ( .82mm) in thickness works nicely.

[Keta]

Another "fix" would be to remove the ears off of an eared washer and put it between the gearsleeve ratchet and the delrin/CF under gear washer.

[trond_solem]

Is that carbon washer at least .82mm in thickness?
By the way, not related to above ... well it could be. that washer would do a much better job if it was a Delrin/Acetal washer, usually the .031" ( .82mm) in thickness works nicely.

I need to get some delrin sheet.