US113 Handle Going Backwards

[johndtuttle]

Very simple, that reel can't handle the fish you're after. Get yourself a tank, well equipped, it will  give you 30lb of smooth drag.
The 113H would get the job done.
Sal

This is not insulting?

Ok.

You take a Penn 113. Modify it precisely like Penn has over the years until it is 3/4 of the reel a Baja Special is then you tell people the Baja can't handle catfish?

Every single idea in a Tank is taken from a Baja Special. Double Dog, Eared drag washers, Aluminum frame, stainless gears.

I would think you would be more respectful of people that inspired everything you know about fishing reels.

[Alto Mare]

Very simple, that reel can't handle the fish you're after. Get yourself a tank, well equipped, it will  give you 30lb of smooth drag.
The 113H would get the job done.
Sal

This is not insulting?

Ok.

No John, I don't believe so.
I have a couple of friends in Alaska that have been using the 113H tanked and it is the only reel of choice for them. Those guys pull up some nice fish and I thought it was a good advice.
The Baja is a great reel. There is a reel for every occasions, all have their place. Again, just my opinion.
Sal

[Tightlines667]

Alright...

I happen to have a 130ST, a 130H, and a 14/0 apart on my bench right now, so I took some measurements, and put pen to paper.  With a little math we can compare the cranking power of the three reels....

The Penn Senator 14/0 has:

Arm length = 3.44"
Main Gear Diameter = 1.94"
Spool Diameter = 6"
Pinion Diameter = 1.28"
Gear Ratio = 1.6:1

The Penn International 130ST has:

Arm length = 3.50"
Low Speed Main Gear Diameter = 1.50"
High Speed Main Gear Diameter = 2.44"
Spool Diameter = 5.67"
Low Speed Pinion Diameter = 1.69"
High Speed Pinion Diameter = 1.19"
Low Speed Gear Ratio = 1.2:1
High Speed Gear Ratio = 2.2:1


The Penn International 130H has:

Arm length = 3.50"
Main Gear Diameter = 1.44"
Spool Diameter = 5.67"
Pinion Diameter = 1.19"
Gear Ratio = 2.1:1

I think a good way to express cranking power is:

What I call the 'power ratio' which expresses the relationship of the above 5 numbers to each other in a meaningful way:

Power Ratio =
(Spool:Pinion) X (Pinion:Main) /((Arm length) X2):Main)

*This describes the relationship between the amount of force generated at the spool when a given force is applied to the handle arm.

For the 14/0:
S:P = 4.69
P:M = 1.60
A:M = 3.55

So Power Ratio =(4.69 X 1.60 )/3.55
                           =2.11

For the 130ST (when in Low Gear):
S:P = 3.36
P:M = 1.20
A:M = 4.67

So Power Ratio =(3.36 X 1.20)/4.67
                           =0.86

This suggests that more power is generated at the spool in the 130ST in low gear then the Senator 14/0.  

Interestingly enough, the Power Ratio for the 130ST in high speed
= 3.65

And the Power Ratio for the 130H = 2.06

So the combination of a slightly smaller spool, larger pinion, longer arm, larger main leads to much greater power in the 130ST in Low Gear, and slightly more power then the 14/0.

Line retrieval rates ("/crank, from least to most) are:

1) 130ST (Low)= 30.40"/crank
2)14/0 = 45.22"/crank
3)130H = 53.19"/crank
4)130ST (High)= 55.73"/crank

Again the Power Ratios (from most to least power) are:

1)130ST (Low)= 0.86
2)130H = 2.06
3)14/0 = 2.11
4)130ST (High)= 3.65

So although line retrieval rate is a good proxy for power, as we can see with the 130H (which has the exact same 4 measurements as a 130ST in High Speed, and a slightly lower gear ratio)..gear ratio can also trip the scales.

It is interesting that 130H and 14/0 are so simalar in terms of power and line retrieval rate despite the larger spool diameter and larger main and Pinion gear size of the 14/0.  In theory you could achieve the same power ratio that we have in the most powerful of the 4 (130ST in Low),   by lengthening the handle arm on the 14/0.  In order to achieve the same power the 14/0 would need a handle arm that is 8.5" long.  This would still yield the same line retrieval rate/crank but your cranks would be much longer around (require more work).  Also, the forces applied to the gear train, etc.. would be greater with the longer arm.

I actually just made a simple spreadsheet, that allows one to plug the 5 values in for any reel and get a power ratio and retreval rate that one can use to cross compare different reel models, gear ratios, and handle arm lengths.  Incidentally, you can also plug different numbers in for effective spool diameter to see these effects on power and line retrieval rate.

[Keta]

Gear size has nothing to do with it, 6:1 is 6:1 and it does not matter if the main gear is 1" or 10" in diameter the mechanical advantage (disadvantage when the ratio is too high) is the same.  Spool diameter and handle length are like levers but too long of handle arm requires more travel and too large of spool OD makes the reel and you work harder.  BTW, I still prefer the 349H over the 113H, similar reels with different spool OD's.

There is a balance point or "sweet spot" that works best, for me it's 4:1.

[johndtuttle]

Gear size has nothing to do with it, 6:1 is 6:1 and it does not matter if the main gear is 1" or 10" in diameter the mechanical advantage (disadvantage when the ratio is too high) is the same.  Spool diameter and handle length are like levers but too long of handle arm requires more travel and too large of spool OD makes the reel and you work harder.  BTW, I still prefer the 349H over the 113H, similar reels with different spool OD's.

There is a balance point or "sweet spot" that works best, for me it's 4:1.

No Keta, the physical size (radius) of the gear is actually very important for the final power (torque) output. This is why gears in a watch cannot turn over the spool of a fishing reel. Not that they have no strength but because they have no torque.

The larger the main gear, the larger the corresponding pinion gear. The relationship between the pinion and the spool size (or the effective radius based on how much line is on the spool) is everything.

To move the spool you must move the pinion. The bigger the pinion the more torque it produces. To grow the pinion you must grow the size of the main gear.

This is precisely why the size of main gears has been growing steadily with each successive generation of new reels from every manufacturer. This is also why the "low profile" baitcaster geometry is so popular. You get max cranking power from the large main gears in relation to spool size.

Remember when  Penn invented the "Torque" star drag reels? It was because Shimano (in the trinidad) showed them they could produce higher speed reels that had the same torque as lower speed reels by growing the main gears.

That is why they call it the Torque.

[Keta]

I've worked with gears from small reel gears to gears as large as 10', gear ratio is gear ratio no matter what the size.  You can not create matter or energy out of the air.  A lever with the fulcrum 1" away from the load and 10" away from the motive force is the same as one 1' and 10' or 100' and 1000', the same for gears.  Spool diameter (line level) is load, lever length is motive force, gears are force multipliers.

[johndtuttle]

I've worked with gears from small reel gears to gears as large as 10', gear ratio is gear ratio no matter what the size.  You can not create matter or energy out of the air.  A lever with the fulcrum 1" away from the load and 10" away from the motive force is the same as one 1' and 10' or 100' and 1000', the same for gears.  Spool diameter (line level) is load, lever length is motive force, gears are force multipliers.

Gear ratio is gear ratio, of course that never changes. But, the radius of the gear is proportional to the amount of actual Torque produced.

Nothing is being created out of thin air, it is being created by the radius arm of the gear.

To make the Torque (rotational force) of the gear as great as possible, you grow the radius. Bigger gears make more Torque. Not all 6:1 gears produce the same amount of torque, it depends on their size.

This is not opinion, it is empiric fact derived from the equation for Torque = Radius x Force applied. It is precisely why longer handles produce more Torque and why smaller spools require less torque to turn.

[Tightlines667]

Ok ran a few numbers on the 6/0 here are my results...

Gear Ratio/Power Ratio/Line Retrieval Rate
6/0...W/ longer stock arm (outer hole):
2.1/3.06/17.74
2.9/4.22/24.49
3.25/4.73/27.45
4.0/5.82/33.78

6/0...W/ shorter stock arm (inner hole):
2.1/4.25/17.74
2.9/5.86/24.49
3.25/6.57/27.45
4.0/8.09/33.78

It is interesting that for the 6/0, even with a 4:1 gear ratio..using the outer hole on the stock handle arm will produce better power then a 2.9:1 ratio and the shorter arm, while line retrieval rate will be close to 34" on the former, and only 24" on the later.  

Bear in mind that the spool diameter measurements I used are actually the outer diameter (more then full) so actual rates are less.  

These numbers are only demonstrating the relationship between these elements, and are not taking into account actual forces applied and on each of the components.


We can use the Torque = Radius x Force equation John mentioned, and the relationship between the 5 components to calculate (or back-calculate) torque on any given part under a given applied force.  It would also be beneficial to add one additional measurement to the mix... ratchet diameter.  This last one would be treated differently on star verses lever drag reels owing to the  location of the dog(s). 

[Rivverrat]

You know, I need to apologize to Rivverrat, all he wanted to know was how to deal with his issue with the Baja. Sorry bud, although I strongly believe what I've said above, it wasn't the right place.
This thread is now going in a different direction and with some senseless comments.

Rivverrat, contact Penn and see how they want to handle it. No need for much explanations to them, they've been watching us from the start and do so every day here.

Sal

Oh Sal, no worries at all. I thought at first you all was just funning around. Regardless it's no big deal at all. It's all good! We all have things we like & jump at opportunities to talk about them. 

I really like where some of this is going. Yup I'll get a hold of Penn tomorrow. I also talk with Steve Carson a bit. I think some good points have been made about simple solutions to making the area of this reel stronger.   
   

[jurelometer]

OK a couple of things.

When a customer says "I believe I have made an improvement to your product"  the best engineers get interested.  It is only the insecure ones that first smirk, and then feel insulted -I've seen both types in action.   This level of customer involvement  is a benefit to the manufacturer.  And I personally see nothing wrong with being proud of our aftermarket changes.

Regarding large gears, force multipliers and torque:  My view is that you are all making different points.  Changing the size of the gears without changing the ratio does not change the force multiplier.  Larger gears will have more leverage on the respective shafts (good and/or bad).   Larger gears allow for larger teeth which is a huge benefit.  As John has pointed out you wouldn't put watch sized gears on a truck, irregardless of the ratios. 

Regarding star vs lever drag advantages.  I believe that the lever drag has many inherent advantages-  it is not fighting the force multiplier of the gear ratio so you can get the same amount of drag with less force on the stack.  You don't have to have an encapsulated stacked drag system- so better heat dissipation and drag diameters greater than the gear size  are now possible.  The anti-reverse can be ahead of the gears, so the gears are not subject to bi-directional gear strain.  The drag is engaged gradually rather than the fully off to fully on slam you get from engaging a star drag.    However it also looks to me like  many lever drag reel designs do not fully utilize these advantages. 

Regarding tall spools-  tall spools  (when full) create more leverage against frame and pinion.   It is more more challenging to build a stiff reel with the same capacity if it is too tall or  too wide.  There is a sweet spot.   However a tall reel is a great way to increase the retrieve speed and re-use a lot of proven parts and designs.

Getting back on track - a newer ratchet looks to me (too) like the right first step.  Raising the dogs may introduce new problems if they are not supported  so they will lay flat, or if there is too much taper in the pins- plus you may not want to get them too close to the top of the pin.    Lifting the dogs a little with a wide delrin or metal washer might help. Or simply making the dogs a bit thicker.  I would worry about making the ratchet too thick.  If/when the shaft tilts, you don't want the ratchet  to scrape the bridge.  It would be nice to  to redesign the spring so that it does not run under the dog- reducing some of the dog tilt.

My $0.02

-Jurelometer

[Rivverrat]

 




Getting back on track - a newer ratchet looks to me (too) like the right first step.  Raising the dogs may introduce new problems if they are not supported  so they will lay flat, or if there is too much taper in the pins- plus you may not want to get them too close to the top of the pin.    Lifting the dogs a little with a wide delrin or metal washer might help. Or simply making the dogs a bit thicker.  I would worry about making the ratchet too thick.  If/when the shaft tilts, you don't want the ratchet  to scrape the bridge.  It would be nice to  to redesign the spring so that it does not run under the dog- reducing some of the dog tilt.

My $0.02

-Jurelometer

Hey great post! I especially like the common sense approach to the part of your post I quoted. You like John & some others here always seem to have good points.

Hey guys I was not offended by anything Sal had to say so slow soft & easy. It's just fishing reels. Something we all have some thoughts on. I just dont want to see a great thread go to the crapper. There are some very good thoughts & points being made here....Jeff

[Rivverrat]

First, this is a very good reel -- 

Every time I work on one of these Bajas or US Senators -- I marvel at how well they perform -- and am always promising myself to re-engineer the bridge, A/R dogs, springs, and ratchet.  Then it would be a perfect reel, IMO.  They just need better springs, SS dogs, solid spacers under the dogs to hold them in position. 

Just really finicky reels that would be perfect with a better dog/spring, and solid dog placement system.

Fred just reread your post. Do you think the present pins the dogs ride on will work? They taper down quite a bit going into the bridge. As I stated the pin with the bad dog was tilted a bit out of it's whole. 

[SoCalAngler]

I had my drag set around 20 lbs. when I had that fish. Did not have a gob of line stripped from the reel.  Tightened the drag down pulled & I about went over backwards when the reel gave.

Like your saying maybe just a fluke. But after this it will be a bit before I truly trust this reel when I'm leaning on it. Much rather it be something wrong that I can fix.  

I will put my 2 cents here and I mean no disrespect to anyone.

Ok first the 113's either the Metals or Baja's were not designed to fish over 60 lb test as the weakest line on a reel.

Don' bring a knife to a gun fight.

In the above statement 20 lbs of drag sounds right but when you say you set the reel at "around" 20 lbs of drag, well what was it set at? Then, "tightened" down the drag, what was it tightened down too, do you know?

Believe it or not fishing reels were never designed to remove logs, stumps or rocks from a river, they were designed to catch fish. Do you think having 25-30 lbs of drag or more would of removed your hook any better with what it was stuck onto?

With the amount of drag set at fighting a fish and then making it stronger and pulling harder do you really think that was the best way to dislodge the hook from what ever you were snagged onto? I understand that this may be the only way to remove stuck gear but if you would of loosened the drag wrapped the line around the frame/spool area a couple of times then pulled on the line above the reel while cranking the handle until everything came tight you would relieve the dogs from handling all the pressure. The line rapped around the frame would take around 1/3 to 1/2 of the pressure applied strait to the dog. Even putting some thumb pressure on the spool and pulling would of helped save from this failure. I'm not saying you did not I'm just stating that it will relieve some of the stress on the dog.

Can improvements be made to just about every reel on the market? Sure, but if you need more than 20 lbs of drag for whatever reason your going to need bigger reels designed to handle the drag pressure for bigger fish or in your case for pulling on stumps, logs or what ever IMO.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

IMO reels were never designed to lift dead weight or pull on static or unmovable objects and THIS SHOULD NEVER BE A MEASUREMENT ON HOW WELL A REEL PREFORMS. This can be a good test on how a rod preforms under the load you choose to fish your reel at but never a good way to tell how a reel will react while on a fish.

[foakes]

JM is right --

Any tilt in a dog will cause multiple issues -- dogs must be flat with no chance for slop.

These dogs will tilt slightly under the pressure of an extreme fish -- not the 97% of the fish we generally fish for.

And there are other possible areas of looseness -- unattached ratchet, light springs without proper fold over keeper ends -- prone to slipping out of place, dogs cast instead of machined -- slightly rounded, ratchet cast instead of machined with crisp edges -- also slightly rounded teeth, and unlike the rest of the reel components -- the metal for these components is not up to the standards for which this reel was designed for -- or quite frankly the high quality of the rest of the reel.

Penn is a fantastic company, IMO -- but like trying to do a sea change with an aircraft carrier group -- or even get to the point where the decision is made to turn the group around -- takes more reasons that just a few guys on a site doing some Monday morning re-engineering.

This reel is a fantastic reel for 90% of the fisherman out there.

IMO, and I am not an expert or an engineer (but there are folks who are very clever and ingenious on this site) -- however this is all this reel needs to be able to handle nearly any challenge -- then it would truly be a perfect product -- and very fairly priced -- it would be a solid value for any fisherman -- and would last a lifetime.

-- SS sleeve with ratchet wheel built into the assembly -- raised center under portion so sharp teeth ride just over the bridge plate slightly

-- SS dogs, thicker, better SS, crisp angle for interaction with ratchet wheel -- not rounded -- dogs flat on the bridge plate

-- Thicker pins with "C" clips above dogs

-- Stronger dog springs with different system so springs do not come loose either during use or installation

If I was Penn, I would design a system similar to what is described here as a drop in unit to current reels already in use.  Either offer it at no charge to owners along with free installation -- or make it a $35 turn-key upgrade.

Can you imagine the positive publicity that would be generated among shops, dealers, retailers, consumers, wholesalers, online forums and sites, and the entire angling industry?

Plus, they would be doing what people do not expect a large corporation to do nowadays -- the right thing...

It takes decades to build up a good, trusted reputation -- and in this world of instant communication -- just a few minutes to lose it forever.  We all owe so much to Penn -- and should give them a chance to remedy this issue properly.

Penn has been very receptive to the folks in the field in recent years -- they do get it -- and they do listen and consider.

Just my opinions as a simple reel mechanic --

Best,

Fred

[Rivverrat]

SoCal,
             You are correct in your assessment regarding the proper use of a reel. Normally I wrap the line around the reel a few times if nothing else is handy to pull or break free of snags.

However footing on the bank was not good & no harder than I pulled just prior to the dog giving way causes me to think the damage was at least in some part already there. Fish no way pulled hard enough to do it. Scales I use to set my drag are accurate within 2 lbs. I was fishing 22 lbs. of drag max. No more. Prior to tightening the drag.

I was using 60 lb. Big Game. I did not do a prior full inspection of the reel. I wish I had. The pin the bad dog was on was pulled out on a bit of an angle. Making me wonder if it was not set right to begin with.
But once the dog went it probably  wouldn't take much for it to leverage the pin out a bit.

I believe Charkbait spools some of the US113W  to be fished with 80 & claim no issue with fishing the reel buttoned down. I thought Penn had told me the same. Though I'm not totally certain about that. But after this & seeing the anti reverse I Dont think I would do it.

After some looking into it this is an issue that may not be common place but has happened enough to be mentioned by others who've fished the original Baja's.