US113 Handle Going Backwards

[Tightlines667]

Well put Fred!  

I echo your thoughts.  But I believe this is a fine product, and will operate as just fine as advertised provided it is fished within manufacture-recomended/design specifications.  Bear in mind that forces can spike for a brief moment much larger then you might expect, especially with little line off of the reel, and drag tightened down.  Spectra, and short/stiff rids will exacerbate the effect.  Don't recall any mention of spectra being used here though?  Of course this reel is more then capable of catching large fish.  I have landed 120lb tuna on 16lb test with 5.5lbs of drag, and 1000lb marlin are routinely caught on 80lb test with 25-27lbs of drag.  Of course these catches are in open water.

As reel mechanics we are used to seeing where reels fail and what may happen when neglected or fished beyond specs.  Often times we forget to notice how  ingenius some of the newer designs are, or when something is actually performing its job admitably.  I feel like there were mixed feelings when these new US-made Baja-style senators came out, and knew there was bound to be some fireworks when the first failure came to light.  

John made some valid points about market-driven influence in some of the modern reel designs and some of the positive things that have resulted.  Can improvements be made?  Yes  Will this reel likely perform very well when used what is was designed for and within specs?  Very likely.  

[foakes]

I agree with you fully, John --

And I have stated more than once that this is not a good reel -- it is a fantastic reel.

This is Penns answer to all of our upgrades -- and some of the things Newell did routinely 25-30 years ago...

I am grateful that a large company like Penn is that responsive -- at any level.

We received basically what we have been advocating for years now...

This is also an important reel that we should all get to know a little better.

But for me, knowing what I have learned from experience, like most of us here -- I would not be afraid to fish a Baja or US Senator on a fishing trip.  But I would have a back up arsenal with me ready to go -- which I always have anyway.

For a lot of us, knowing as much as we do about reel mechanics -- some of us would feel uncomfortable trusting this reel -- until the dog system was brought up to proper speed with the rest of the high quality components and engineering of this reel.

So I will see what Penn has in mind -- if anything.  The ball is in their court.

And if nothing comes of my Pollyanna approach -- there are guys on here like Tom, Adam, Alan, Sal, and others -- who would make a perfect After-Market drop in assembly.  There is a market for this -- and if promoted properly -- there are thousands of reel candidates out there ready for an upgrade.

We routinely upgrade any quality product, if possible -- tools, firearms, tackle products, cars, computers, etc.

This is no exception -- and it would be as close to perfect for a manufacturers reel in this price range -- that we have ever seen.

Solid aluminum frame, double dogs, versa drag, SS, double eccentric springs, good handles, spools, gears, and much more --

Just need the last "Missing Link".

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred

[johndtuttle]

Nail on the head Fred, nail on the head. People are spending hours and hours modding older Penns to be close to this reel (and haven't got there yet). It is an inspiration.

There was a thread on BD more than a year ago where one guy had similar trouble and it was right after I got my first US Senator. I queried the Service guys at Penn about it (Tony and Tom are great) worrying about the "floating" nature of the dogs.

When you take one apart you immediately grasp what this means. The stud the dogs sit on is long and the dogs ride a little off of flush with the bridge held by the springs so there is some "play" in the vertical axis the dogs can experience, possibly exacerbated by the sort of rapid tugging and jerking of the rod when trying to free from a snag, that may be leading to a lack of alignment with enough dog with enough ratchet and the tip deforms.

For every design feature there is some level of failure and Penn's position at the time was that they simply do not see any consistent trouble with the design or from the same guys once they get replacement dogs. This sort of resolution is also anecdotal in the sense that you never know if the guy fished it the same and had no trouble, changed practice ie stopped trying to land "California" when hooked or sold the reel in disgust....

As well, as a manufactured reel they have to weigh build simplicity (= cost, and the dog design is laudably simple) versus rate of failure. This may not play well to some but is an economic reality.

Lastly, to dispel any notion that I am biased in this area I will admit I am! I am biased towards Made in USA and rather than throwing stones at one of the last Made in USA reels I am rather surprised that some have not taken a more supportive attitude towards this issue. If it needs solving Penn will solve it.

Some of the same decry the lack of simple mechanically dogged reels and the decline of US Manufacturing in other threads....very disappointing.

[johndtuttle]

SoCal,
             You are correct in your assessment regarding the proper use of a reel. Normally I wrap the line around the reel a few times if nothing else is handy to pull or break free of snags.

However footing on the bank was not good & no harder than I pulled just prior to the dog giving way causes me to think the damage was at least in some part already there. Fish no way pulled hard enough to do it. Scales I use to set my drag are accurate within 2 lbs. I was fishing 22 lbs. of drag max. No more. Prior to tightening the drag.

I was using 60 lb. Big Game. I did not do a prior full inspection of the reel. I wish I had. The pin the bad dog was on was pulled out on a bit of an angle. Making me wonder if it was not set right to begin with.
But once the dog went it probably  wouldn't take much for it to leverage the pin out a bit.

I believe Charkbait spools some of the US113W  to be fished with 80 & claim no issue with fishing the reel buttoned down. I thought Penn had told me the same. Though I'm not totally certain about that. But after this & seeing the anti reverse I Dont think I would do it.

After some looking into it this is an issue that may not be common place but has happened enough to be mentioned by others who've fished the original Baja's.

If the stud the dog rides on was bent then the reel needs to go to Penn to look at. No way that should ever bend unless the reel was exposed to force never intended, or, the stud was not properly hardened.

[Rivverrat]

The stud/pin was was standing at a slant not completly seated.  I dont believe the stud has enough of a purchase on the bridge to ever bend. I pushed the stud back flush with my thumb.  The walk to where I was fishing is to brutal for most. So I dont bring my better rods. I was using a beater Ugly Stick. Again I dont believe I had a chance to pull all that hard & certainly did not bounce the rod.

I'm hearing from a couple hear about fishing this real with in specs. So now I'm learning after the purchase of a another reel that it can have possible issue even when fished at specks well below whats published. Evreything I've read says the drag specs are 27 lbs.  I was not trying to free this snag at that setting.  The drag was not stupid tight as some of you are suggesting. So just what are the honest specs on this reel? Listen if I am responsible I have no issue at all admitting it. I've pulled far harder on my Abu 7000 than I did with this reel when it gave way.  

I was honestly pretty impressed with how few turns of the star it took to get 20 lbs. of drag with this reel.  

[johndtuttle]

The stud/pin was was standing at a slant not completly seated.  I dont believe the stud has enough a purchase on the bridge to ever bend. I pushed the stud back flush with my thumb.       

It shouldn't be loose at all as far as I know. It should be pressed in. That it was able to move at all could be the source of the trouble.

[Rivverrat]

John, I could probably pull it out with tweezers. I'm going to give Penn a holler. 

[johndtuttle]

John, I could probably pull it out with tweezers. I'm going to give Penn a holler. 

Please do, they will probably want to look at it. I sent the service guys an email this am and they forwarded the link to this thread to the engineering dept.



best

[Rivverrat]

John, I could probably pull it out with tweezers. I'm going to give Penn a holler.  

Please do, they will probably want to look at it. I sent the service guys an email this am and they forwarded the link to this thread to the engineering dept.



best

Cool that was good of you John. Wouldn't it be a really neat thing if Penn did 1/2 of what Fred suggested. However I understand as well as any one it's a business & ultimately money does matter.  

[steelfish]

I have a local guy that use his Baja Special for big Baquetas and black seabass (golliat bass)

for yellowtail he has no problem using the Baja, and for Baquetas that could be really fat and heavy he sweat a bit and the baja could handle the fishing but was a golliat bass (I know not the best reel, but in some places in Baja you never know what could bite your offering), well this golliat bass gave a really bad time to the reel, it actually toasted the dogs, of couse after many hours in the water and many big fishes, he use the Baja on a charter boat and it gets punished a lot more than a weekend warrior would do ever.

the Baja special lost one of those pins, both dogs and the right place also lost a plastic pin to center the bridge
check this thread.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14398.msg147513#msg147513


as a side note, the owner was happy to show me the damage on the reel because he said the reel handled a lot of fishes before without any failure, he gladly spend $100 bucks to get all those parts new and have the reel working again.
he owns and uses a Torsa 30, few trinidad A series, few gold trinidad but his favorite reel is the Baja Special.

he told I know the Torsa is considered a better reel than the Baja and I really love the torsa and pretty sure it will handle bigger fishes but I cannot stop of using the Baja for the simplicity, stronger, and casteability, it just a winner in my books.

well, that was the cherry on the cake that I needed to convince myself to get me a Baja Special too.

[foakes]

Cool that was good of you John. Wouldn't it be a really neat thing if Penn did 1/2 of what Fred suggested. However I understand as well as any one it's a business & ultimately money does matter.  


I have confidence Penn will do the right thing, by doing something we would not expect from less successful companies.

The integrity and responsibility of the engineers and brand is at stake here -- make no mistake, it will be addressed in some fashion...

Even though they have been bought and sold -- the heritage of Penn is still intact -- and a simple re-engineering upgrade for a few thousand potential owners of their products -- would do more good than $1M of advertising.

And this reel is going to be around for a long time -- it is not a Shimano or Daiwa that will discontinue parts support after a couple of years.  

This could be the bread and butter for Penn -- and as such, they would not want the model tainted by doubt in any way...

Looking forward to a good outcome.

Best,

Fred

[Rivverrat]

Just spoke with Steve Carson. The issue as he understands it from my very brief explanation is that some of these reels were released with a slightly concave dog gear or ratchet which mine does have. I will be getting in touch with Tony tomorrow & suspect he will send out the needed parts....Jeff

It is my hope that Lee & Fred with his very competent wisdom & structured advice, along with others here continue with the work started regarding this issue. An issue that based on my looking into does not seem to be a regular issue for a lot of people. Except for those of us that fish regularly. 

I also have to say I greatly appreciate SoCal & others bringing up the possibility of error on my part. I completely understand this must be considered with things of this nature. Fellas I am here to learn & contribute what I may. Bringing with me nothing more than my love for The Rivers I fish & the critters that reside there....Jeff  

[johndtuttle]

Just spoke with Steve Carson. The issue as he understands it from my very brief explanation is that some of these reels were released with a slightly concave dog gear or ratchet which mine does have. I will be getting in touch with Tony tomorrow & suspect he will send out the needed parts....Jeff

It is my hope that Lee & Fred with his very competent wisdom & structured advice, along with others here continue with the work started regarding this issue. An issue that based on my looking into does not seem to be a regular issue for a lot of people. Except for those of us that fish regularly. 

I also have to say I greatly appreciate SoCal & others bringing up the possibility of error on my part. I completely understand this must be considered with things of this nature. Fellas I am here to learn & contribute what I may. Bringing with me nothing more than my love for The Rivers I fish & the critters that reside there....Jeff 

Pretty sure you won't have any more trouble, Jeff.

Take a look at this post: http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14398.msg147513#msg147513

This reel was busted by a commercial fisherman in Baja California afters years of service with the drag completely locked down battling Giant Sea Bass that go over 300lbs. The equivalent of a lifetime or more of fishing for any recreational fisherman.

The Dog and Ratchet system of the stock Baja Special and the stock drag was eventually enough to snap the post it rides on...this is not a small amount of force over many years.

The lesson here is multifold:

1. Drag modifications in other reels are nice for increasing top end smoothness but need to be used cautiously or any reel will break in time.

2. Cranking down the drag to max on such reels to remove snags are a bad idea as the drags create a lot of force magnified by the common jerking and tugging to try and free the hook. No reel is designed to handle that stress as the frame flexing during the jerking is bad ju-ju.

3. If the stock dog and ratchet of the Baja Special are strong enough to snap posts after years of service then there probably is nothing wrong with the design, other than (as Lee has suggested) a worn die was used to stamp out the ratchet gears in some late model Bajas leading to the poor shape of the teeth on the ratchet we see in Jeff's reel. This has been addressed by Penn.

So what is the point of this post?

There are limitations to the practical engineering of any reel that have to be in line with expected and common use. Every single one of them cannot be made to some ideal of perfection that will handle unlimited fishing at max drag. People that work on even Penn International 130W reels can attest to this.

Jeff's reel is a case of a poorly produced ratchet that has been addressed. The reel in the above link was a case of years of brutal commercial service. The commercial fisherman was so happy that the Baja had held up better than anything he had ever used he was happy to pay for the parts to rebuild his reel to keep fishing it....All in all you probably cannot beat a US Senator for the money for strength and reliability for a Manufactured Reel by a major company that has parts and warranty and a track record with the reel over 15 years.

This is not to say our Mad Modder community will not create some bullet proof monsters and do us proud.

Lee has my reel at the moment and is experimenting with a coarser toothed ratchet and some cut SS dogs. We'll see if we can improve a little bit on what is currently stock or not. 

[Keta]

I started a new thread on the mods I'm working on, any input will be considered and appreciated.

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14881.0;topicseen

I really like these reels, especially the US113N.

[Rivverrat]

Well I just got this reel off to Penn. They were really wanting to see it. Let you all know what takes place. I am more than just a little confident that Penn will take care of this situation. Simply because that is their track record.