US113/113N Baja Special R&D

[Rivverrat]

The more I look at this reel the more I like what Penn has done.

Again my same feelings & why I'm so interested in this.

[1Forecon]

If the lip below the squared shank that mates with the ratchet must stay as opposed to placing a delrin washer there--- then how about a ratchet that has a high wall inside and maintains it square contact points then drops down flush around the lip(stepped??).  So it sits lower, near flush with the bridge and there is equal lateral force being applied by the OEM dogs and making the rachet teeth portion thicker or keep it thin(ratchet) but now lower it and use thinner(Keta) SS washers and add the smaller c-clip above them or not(if a washer will keep the dogs in place to keep them lined up laterally.

Can you envision what I just described? I'm not a metalworker or engineer mind you.

[Alto Mare]

I can envision what you are saying, I believe that would be a good option.
I said something similar here:
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14838.msg153218#msg153218
Sal

[1Forecon]

Yea I read that too. All that keeps going through my simple little head is the dogs are huge to compensate for a bent/sloping down rounded edge ratchet(read-cheap). The dogs are tilting due to the spring used, they float up and down on the posts and do not sit flush against the bridge-so why not make everything flush against the bridge and if needed apply a delrin washer to work as a bearing surface under it to keep it from galling the bridge. Either a thicker edge and deeper ratchet for the dogs to bite and not be tilted off kilter and bust the edges of the dogs and rounding off the ratchet.

Easy to say, but I've yet to build anything myself! I'm part of the peanut gallery mind you.

I see what your seeing obviously.

[Three se7ens]

The picture in the other thread Sal mentioned does not have the springs in place. The springs lift the dog off the bridge, and ideally would keep the dog up against the bottom of the main gear where it can better contact the ratchet.

I don't see a design flaw there, other than the springs being a bit on the thin/weak side. The dogs are a precision fit on their posts, so there is little chance of tilting or misalignment. The problem in riverrats case appeared to be the pin the dogs ride on coming loose from the bridge, and the pin itself causing the misalignment of the dogs.

A possible option may be new dogs with a cool spring like the jigmaster bridges Alan C offers. Then a delrin washer under the dog to act as a spacer.

[jurelometer]

The picture in the other thread Sal mentioned does not have the springs in place. The springs lift the dog off the bridge, and ideally would keep the dog up against the bottom of the main gear where it can better contact the ratchet.

I don't see a design flaw there, other than the springs being a bit on the thin/weak side. The dogs are a precision fit on their posts, so there is little chance of tilting or misalignment. The problem in riverrats case appeared to be the pin the dogs ride on coming loose from the bridge, and the pin itself causing the misalignment of the dogs.

A possible option may be new dogs with a cool spring like the jigmaster bridges Alan C offers. Then a delrin washer under the dog to act as a spacer.

If the dog is aligned until the post is pushed out, then changing the dogs or ratchet will not help, right? 

Judging by the photos, once the dog is lifted by the spring it is up past the the top of the post, or at least into the rounded portion, maybe that is where the wobble room comes from.   If the dog is being driven under the ratchet, either the dog is tilting, or the ratchet is.   The only other option is that the small amount of dog that actually contacts the ratchet is sheared away.   But then the post will not come loose.

At any rate, I would still argue that  a design where the dog is not supported by a flat surface is not ideal.  The more the dog is pushing laterally against the post, the better.   I think we are all leaning toward either better support of the lifted dog or a thicker dog.  I like the idea of a thicker dog, as it should help keep the force more in the lateral direction.   something like this:



Dropping the ratchet teeth down toward the bridge may be a better fix , but not sure if it is possible.  These type of parts would both require a little bit of machining and cant be just laser or waterjet cut.

Looking at the original layout, just improving the ratchet teeth should make a huge difference. Maybe that will be enough???

[Tightlines667]

I like the redesigned dog idea.  Wouldn't it be easier to just use a flat dog, with a spacer/bushing underneith?

[Alto Mare]

The picture in the other thread Sal mentioned does not have the springs in place. The springs lift the dog off the bridge, and ideally would keep the dog up against the bottom of the main gear where it can better contact the ratchet.

I don't see a design flaw there, other than the springs being a bit on the thin/weak side. The dogs are a precision fit on their posts, so there is little chance of tilting or misalignment. The problem in riverrats case appeared to be the pin the dogs ride on coming loose from the bridge, and the pin itself causing the misalignment of the dogs.

A possible option may be new dogs with a cool spring like the jigmaster bridges Alan C offers. Then a delrin washer under the dog to act as a spacer.

If the dog is aligned until the post is pushed out, then changing the dogs or ratchet will not help, right? 

Judging by the photos, once the dog is lifted by the spring it is up past the the top of the post, or at least into the rounded portion, maybe that is where the wobble room comes from.   If the dog is being driven under the ratchet, either the dog is tilting, or the ratchet is.   The only other option is that the small amount of dog that actually contacts the ratchet is sheared away.   But then the post will not come loose.

At any rate, I would still argue that  a design where the dog is not supported by a flat surface is not ideal.  The more the dog is pushing laterally against the post, the better.   I think we are all leaning toward either better support of the lifted dog or a thicker dog.  I like the idea of a thicker dog, as it should help keep the force more in the lateral direction.   something like this:



Dropping the ratchet teeth down toward the bridge may be a better fix , but not sure if it is possible.  These type of parts would both require a little bit of machining and cant be just laser or waterjet cut.

Looking at the original layout, just improving the ratchet teeth should make a huge difference. Maybe that will be enough???

Dave, I agree with you 100%, dogs need to be supported by a flat surface.
Dropping the ratchet teeth towards the bridge should be possible and should also help quite a bit on this reel. I know you could do it if you wanted to, I've seen your work  , no need for many, one or two should do it.
Once tested, they could be sent to Penn for mass production...just a suggestion.

[jurelometer]

I like the redesigned dog idea.  Wouldn't it be easier to just use a flat dog, with a spacer/bushing underneith?

A wide/tall bushing would be an improvement- but I think we want the force to be a close to the bridge plate a possible to minimize the leverage on the dog posts. 

[snip]

Dave, I agree with you 100%, dogs need to be supported by a flat surface.
Dropping the ratchet teeth towards the bridge should be possible and should also help quite a bit on this reel. I know you could do it if you wanted to, I've seen your work  , no need for many, one or two should do it.
Once tested, they could be sent to Penn for mass production...just a suggestion.

Are you sure there is room-  looking at the photos, it seems a bit tight?  There might not be enough meat to cut out the relief. 

Plus I have seen your handiwork-  I am sure you could grind out a couple beauties with your dremel long before I finished machining one from scratch

I would guess it would be awhile before Penn came out with a fix of their own if needed.  It would have to be included in all the new US Senator models and then offered as replacement parts for current reels.

2D cut parts will be cheaper aftermarket alternatives.   Maybe I got too fancy with the dog design.  A simple 2D cut dog that is nice and thick, resting on a thin delrin washer- with a tiny hole or notch to accommodate a spring? Combined with a cleaner cut ratchet- it should work better,

I have a nagging suspicion that Adam may be right, if not now, as soon as the dogs and ratchet get fixed.   400lbs is a lot of force on the dog posts.   This is just a general problem with the combo of high lb star drags, high gear ratios and tall spools.   The force is multiplied and directed at the dog post (and after that, the pinion/spool junction -don't get me started on floating pinions on big reels ).

I always liked the idea of screwing the dog post into the bridge through the sideplate so that the dog posts are mechanically connected to the bridge and supported on both sides.    Guess this is not an option here- plus the 5-40 screws are bit skinny for the the job.

Another question - would it be possible to screw a sideplate (with gear and star)   to a workbench to watch the failure, and observe any improvement with new parts?   Or does the sideplate act to contain the dog?    Something along these lines:

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.msg147255#msg147255

-J.

[1Forecon]

My brain keeps saying keep the dogs down on the posts to avoid extra shearing force by riding high and possible canting since just a thin piece of spring is trying to keep it level and supported at the correct height causing post failure as RR endured by riding up, canting, diving under the ratchet, etc..

I don't like the spring under the dogs causing canting, I also think if Penn just flipped the lip and squared ratchet cutout on the sleeve this probably could have ben avoided. Keep the lip(rounded smaller in diameter than the squared end for the ratchet so you can still slide the ratchet down around it). The ratchet would sit near flat against the bridge with a delrin washer under it to prevent galling, the gears could still be supported above it on the round lip and the ratchet wouldn't be floating(elevated above the bridge with that GAP!).

Flip the spring design so it rides over the top of whatever dog you use to keep it (dog) from riding up the post and keeps it aligned with the ratchet
laterally. Those (as you can tell, I really like the idea of small c-clips to keep the dogs down and always on the posts) darn dogs and springs are always walking off!

If anyone has a spare sleeve(sacrificial), is there enough material on the lower flange to cut it square to accept the ratchet? Simply measuring this would suffice. Then with a delrin washer or a bearing between the ratchet and the bottom of gear(like Sal's done before) if you feel it needs it, would eliminate any further friction of the bottom of the gears in the drag stack. This would lower it( ratchet) closer to the bridge and lessen the gap and I think eliminate the problem as I see it.---In my Opinion, the GAP between the bridge and the ratchet is the Problem! It leads to the floating dogs, etc.........

Additionally, as has been discussed, a flatter cut ratchet(not stamped or curved) would help facilitate the correct mating of the surfaces between the dogs and the ratchet. It is my understanding the amount of teeth correlates to the lessening of handle slop without the addition of an ARB at the top of the sleeve? I think simply from looking at these photos that the ratchet teeth don't look deep or proud thus allowing more of a chance of slippage or improper bite.  But, if more accomplished folks say they're fine than so be it. I am only using a comparison from the 113h ratchet as my basis as well as the other couple of reels I've been in.


Shame I can't just walk into the garage and whip out a fresh sleeve! Soon, I hope but no tools like that in my garage just yet.

[Alto Mare]

Are you sure there is room-  looking at the photos, it seems a bit tight?  There might not be enough meat to cut out the relief. 

Plus I have seen your handiwork-  I am sure you could grind out a couple beauties with your dremel long before I finished machining one from scratch

Yes, I believe it could be done, but I'm not equipped to do so. If a new ratchet is made, lets say double in thickness, only the squared area needs to be recessed halfway. Here is a shot of what I'm talking about, the area marked by the red arrow would get recessed half way:

Since Lee is already on it, it is a good idea to see what he comes up with and how it performs first.

[jonnou]

just want to watch the progress

[steelfish]

Lee, amigo, any news on this?

[Keta]

Still waiting on the cutter, I'll run over in the morning before I take my boat out for a test run.

[jurelometer]

another idea (sort of an enhancement on the under-dog washer idea) :    a c-shaped delrin plate with holes for the dog posts, and maybe notches for improved dog springs if needed.  The plate would be just the right height and location to provide lateral support for the dogs and a mounting point for dog springs.

So an upgrade kit could be made with all 2D cuts on a laser or waterjet:

1.   stainless ratchet with flat cut teeth
2.   delrin dog support plate
3.   stainless dogs (if you decide to go with fewer teeth on the ratchet)
4.   dog springs
5.  extra wide delrin under gear washer (if needed to provide lateral support the top of the dogs. need a bit of clearance here.  We don't want the dogs to be squeezed under load/tilt

The idea here is to get the maximum surfsce to surface engagement, dogs supported laterally, well sprung for positive engagement, while keeping as close to the original design as possible.

I can sketch out the idea if this is not clear enough.  I'd try it myself, but I don't want to buy one of these reels 

I can contribute a couple dog support plate prototypes if needed. 

-J