Bellevilles Arrangementing???

[gstours]

Hello out there,  I need to soften the ramp up and lessen the final drag potential of a friends 2 speed reel.   I thought about it and knew I could get good advise here so I will wait to hear which way to go.  It will be a Mono set-up so lower drag settings can be tolerated.
   What I got is the usual ()() arrangement with a lot of movement on the drag lever from freespool to when the drag shows any sign of engaging.   
I was thinking  )()( and may have the room if they are longer when arrange this way.  Is there a 25% loss in available potential if 1 belleville is subtracted and the stack shimmed with flat washers to make up the original length when assembled.
Any advice or info will be appreciated.        tanks, gst.

[Ohrichie]

Your revised stack will be the same height. If you remove one B'vill you will have 25%  less pressure.

[Bryan Young]

You may need to change the ramp rate by reducing the cam angle in the lever assembly.

[Tightlines667]

Stack spacing needs to be maintained near stock.  Sometimes converting from a ()() to a )()( config takes up too much space and may result in a loss of freespool.  Removing a Belleville and going to )()|| with a couple of small thrust/shim washers on the inside to maintain spacing may give you what you are looking for.  As Brian says, sometimes an agreed I've cam ramp may need to be modified or replaced as well (such as changing the Tiagras 50WLRS cam to a 50W cam.  It really is a matter of experimenting and testing to get what you are after.  There is a thread somewhere that shows typical drag curves with differing Belleville config that may prove useful here as well. 

[gstours]

Thanks and now another explanation!  When you talk about modifying the drag cam does that mean removing material on the slope of the ramp to make the ramp more strait to the peak?  thats what i,m thinking. or maybe adding material in front of the ramp and starting the ramp a little bit sooner so to speak?  This might make it more gradual as a straighter line to the top of the ramp.
  As stated there is a fair amount of drag lever movement forward from freespool before any drag pressure is felt or gained.
    Any more ideas or criticism will be tolerated.     thanks  gst.

[Robert Janssen]

You might want to keep in mind that )()( has exactly the same stack height as ()()  and also the same rate of spring force and compression. Also, rearranging the washers  orientation next to a ball bearing is not always doable, with consideration to rotating vs non-rotating parts.

.

[Bryan Young]

Reducing the slope and lowering the peak at on both sides of the cam would be needed.

[gstours]

Thanks everyone for the feed back.  I will start with the ideas given and report back with what I,ve found out and maybe some pictures to show what went on.  It might be after christmas but its on my list of indoor fun stuff. 
    This is why this site is so great,  lots of contribution, and the reader can get free advice and without the sales pitch politics!

[Rothmar2]

Gary, you might be able to get the same sized (or very similar) bellevilles (ID, OD & uncompressed height) but they have a different spring force rating than the ones you currently have. ie, could be made of slightly different material or thinner section material. In Australia I use an online supplier who lists the spring force ratings of their bellevilles in stock. Quite often they have several spring force options for the same (or nearly) dimensioned washer. It will still pay to carefully measure the Belleville stack height with verniers, from the stock reel before you start playing with variations. You may have to add a shim or two to the end of the stack to get the overall height as close a possible to the original stack height.
For what you are trying to achieve, look for thinner sectioned washers that have a weaker spring force that the current ones.
I'm pretty sure (without ever being to the US) that Mc-masters should be able to supply a few different spec bellevilles for similar or same sized washers. It's then up to how much patience you have to keep trying different Belleville and shim combinations until you can approach what you are trying to achieve. Modifying the cam ramp/angle physically should only be attempted after playing around with some Belleville combinations first. Having said that, I have modified a few cams in the past to get the result I was after.
Hope this helps.

[Alto Mare]

Not an expert on lever drag, but I've been working on them for a while now, I believe I got it down.
I agree with Rothmar2, you've also mentioned it above. Try the belleville first and see what that gets you, I would not mess with the cam.
You know, you could also replace one of the belleville with a couple of standard flat washers, as long as the ID and OD is the same, it will work just fine.
Softer belleville sound good to me, but either way, you would still need to see how they act.

Sal

[gstours]

Thanks guys for the advice.  Yes I was wondering about different strength bellevilles, I was quite sure that the thickness and spring of different washers might be exchanged to find some softer ones IE. like penns/shimano/okuma/china?  as there are quite a few reels that have similar inside and outer dimensions.  or close enough to be modified?
   I think thinner washers would be ok.  meaning not as stiff.    I think these washers are heat treated possibly?  as they are a spring in type.   Thanks for the Mc Master tip too!   

[UKChris]

This might be daft but try popping an extra Belleville in - if there is room - to take up the slack and increase the top end. You'll end up with (()() or ())() or ()(() or ()()) - they'll all be the same in terms of stack height and spring power.

It worked for me with an 80II STW.

Good luck experimenting.