Vinegar for corrosion removal? Really?

[Shark Hunter]

Not that language Sid.
I mean a more country twang to their speech.
No pig squealing.

[Maxed Out]

I picked up a 249 recently to put on a shelf as kind of a decoration.  I'd like to clean it up and was thinking about soaking the metal parts in vinegar, but I'm not sure about the handle.  It has a wooden knob.  Will vinegar damage the knob?  Is there a better way to clean up the handle without harming the wooden knob?  The metal part of the handle has a bit of green corrosion on it.

  Take an old toothbrush and dip it in straight vinegar and brush away the green deposits that are close to the wood knob. Definitely do not want to soak that knob in anything, wrapped up or not.

   Vinegar-toothbrush, problem solved

[sdlehr]

Not that language Sid.
I mean a more country twang to their speech.
No pig squealing.

That's a relief! When I hear the term hillbilly I think of the movie Deliverance (for anyone that didn't get my reference).

Sid

[foakes]

Two old sayings come to my thought when thinking about hillbillies and rednecks --

I have a lot of respect for hillbillies and rednecks -- this is all in good fun -- and the hundreds of clever uses for duct tape and vice grips -- is amazing. 

(Just so we can get further off track on this thread, sorry!)

The first actually confirms and proves Darwin's theory about evolution and survival of a species --

"Redneck Famous last words -- Hold my beer, and watch this!"

Other old joke --

"Have you been busy? -- Man...I've been busier than a set of jumper cables at a Hillbilly funeral".

Best,

Fred

[johndtuttle]

I picked up a 249 recently to put on a shelf as kind of a decoration.  I'd like to clean it up and was thinking about soaking the metal parts in vinegar, but I'm not sure about the handle.  It has a wooden knob.  Will vinegar damage the knob?  Is there a better way to clean up the handle without harming the wooden knob?  The metal part of the handle has a bit of green corrosion on it.

  Take an old toothbrush and dip it in straight vinegar and brush away the green deposits that are close to the wood knob. Definitely do not want to soak that knob in anything, wrapped up or not.

   Vinegar-toothbrush, problem solved

Corrosion-X and a tooth brush scrub works too. I only use vinegar for a large collection of parts or severe cases.

[wltklah]

Can I use vinegar to clean the rust of this main gear from shimano Trinidad A? I clean the reel after every trip with tap water and the gear is rusted on the back side only for unknown reason. I am not sure what kind of coating is on the gear thought, so will it be ok to soak the gear in vinegar?

[GClev]

What does it do? How does it work?

I'll post a few pH numbers for some of the acids found in vinegar and easily available household cleaners. pH ranges from 0 (strong acid) to 14 (strong base).

Vinegar (5-6% acetic acid) is, for these purposes, 1 N, 1 Normal, 1 mole per liter, 60 grams of acid per liter of water (four ways of saying the same thing).

1 N Acetic acid (vinegar) pH 2.4
0.1 N Acetic acid (1 part vinegar to 10 parts water) pH 2.9
0.1 N Citric acid (some other shower/toilet/tile cleaners) pH 2.2
0.1 N Lactic acid (CLR) pH 2.4
1N Sulfuric acid (acid drain cleaner diluted with 12 parts water) pH 0.3
1N Hydrochloric (Muriatic acid from the swimming pool section of Home Depot diluted with water) pH 0.1

Acetic, citric, and lactic acids are weak organic (carboxylic) acids.  Sulfuric and hydrochloric are strong inorganic acids.

Two things happen when using carboxylic acids to remove "verdigris" (great word, Sid).  First, the carboxylate chelates the already-oxidized metal (corrosion and other blue/green stuff), especially copper +2 ions.  There is a visible color change when the copper complex forms to a deeper blue (especially noticeable with ligands like EDTA or pyridine).  The second is the action of the H⁺ on a base metal M⁰.  Acid oxidizes more of the base metal at the surface.  Left to soak, it can remove several more layers of the metal at the molecular level, hence the clean shiny surface.  Great on looks, but no so good for tolerances.

Mixing the vinegar with baking soda neutralizes the acid, but leaves the acetate to act as a mono-dentate ligand.  (Sorry for the big chemistry words.  Chelation is probably 1st year graduate level, so Master's student level.) It still dissolves the metal salts, but doesn't oxidize more base metal.  It doesn't harm the patina on the brass.

Those dark surfaces, surface metal oxides or carbonates, are not typically bad things and sometimes are very good.  Bluing on a firearm is controlled oxidation process.  Anodized aluminum is a controlled oxidation process.  Both leave a protected and sometimes, harder surface. 

Looking briefly at Red-Ox potentials, copper is easily oxidized, chrome and stainless less so.  I'd probably tell the new guy vinegar is ok on internal parts and chrome parts, but a long soak on fine surfaces, especially brass, copper alloy, or aluminum isn't recommended.  With this proviso, I don't treat metals for a career.  I see this from my own prism.  However, I'm not going to clean an old Henry rifle or a Colt revolver with vinegar to make it shiny again.

Moving on slightly and remarking on the other comments.  What do you guys do with your dirty cleaning and degreasing solutions??  Lots of water?  Down the drain??  Flush and forget??  I've found that many city dwellers tend to use the sewer and make it "somone else's problem."  Country dwellers who aren't connected to the sewer, if they're informed, are forced to make a choice.  They own their own septic tank and leach field, and pump their own water from a well.  I am one of the latter and tend to take great care with what goes down the drain and back into the water table.

Better disposal practices might be worthy of a reasoned conversation.

[GClev]

Some people are extremely sensitive to pH.  The book Alkalize or Die by Dr. Theodore Baroody contains some interesting information on pH and modern food.

[Maxed Out]

Can I use vinegar to clean the rust of this main gear from shimano Trinidad A? I clean the reel after every trip with tap water and the gear is rusted on the back side only for unknown reason. I am not sure what kind of coating is on the gear thought, so will it be ok to soak the gear in vinegar?

Those are stains and cannot be removed. My guess is the surface was never greased or oiled and very minimal water can cause those stains. It's all cosmetic, as it will still function as designed. To prevent additional staining, just grease or oil all internal surfaces.

  Ted

[johndtuttle]

Can I use vinegar to clean the rust of this main gear from shimano Trinidad A? I clean the reel after every trip with tap water and the gear is rusted on the back side only for unknown reason. I am not sure what kind of coating is on the gear thought, so will it be ok to soak the gear in vinegar?

When you rinse your reel in fresh water you don't rinse the internals.

Regardless, the fine patina that you see is from salt but is only cosmetic. Well grease all internal parts and don't worry about it. If you use a penetrating oil or grease with some in it (like corrosion-x grease) or by adding some corrosion-x oil to your grease, it will slowly remove it.

[Cone]

      I've used Barkeepers Friend to remove rust stains. It will even get them out of fiberglass. It will really clean up a rusted steel gear but I don't know how hard it would be on sideplates etc. It will remove the rust but it won't help with pits.  Bob

[mo65]

  Vinegar works great for removal of corrosion deposits...but I'm finding the level of corrosion damage will directly affect your appearance results. No one has really shown a comparison between deeply corroded parts and light corrosion, so I'll make an attempt. The level of damage is the difference between a successful cleaning...or just a better look at how trashed your parts really are!    
  Below are some pics of before and after vinegar soaks. The first pic is a severely corroded Beachmaster 155, and the second pic is the bling rings and posts from that reel after a vinegar soak. The deep corrosion had gone through the chrome...so it was removed right along with the green stuff!
  The third pic is a Surfmaster 250 with light corrosion, and the fourth pic is the spool, stand, and posts from it after a vinegar soak.(disregard side plates and rings...parts are mounted in a different reel) In this case corrosion hadn't fully penetrated the chrome...and results were much better!

[sdlehr]

MO, pretty sure what is happening is the chrome is not corroding, but the brass underneath is. Scratches in the chrome, even small ones, expose the brass to salt, and the corrosion process begins. If caught earlier, results could look like your second reel. If caught later, you get the results of the first reel. I believe there's a time factor involved that explains the difference.

Sid

[mo65]

MO, pretty sure what is happening is the chrome is not corroding, but the brass underneath is.

  Exactly...and when allowed to fester...corrosion pushes the chrome up and it flakes right off. Penn parts have some pretty thin chrome from the git go, and that doesn't help matters. Also, from what I've read, joining of dissimilar metals is what starts electrolysis. This must explain why plated brass parts like posts always seem to be way worse than the plain brass parts like a yoke or bridge.

[ez2cdave]

Just as long as I don't hear the words, "Can you squeal like a pig?"...

If you hear Banjo music, paddle faster . . . But, if you flip your canoe, try another strategy !