Number of guides on a rod

[JasonGotaProblem]

I have every reason to believe this is another example of something that seems straightforward but is really an example of me not knowing enough to realize how much i dont know. So with that said...

I've gathered some thought and math goes into the quantity and spacing of guides on a rod. And I'm pretty clear that these factors play a role in how well you can cast with a given rod. I'm also clear that no rod is an island, and one must consider the rod-reel pairing to get the whole picture.

But theres still some stuff that confuses me. Like my 7' penn squadron 2 rod (great bang for your buck but nothing special) has 9 eyes including the tip. My 11' penn prevail has 6 including the tip. I would think it's a factor of cost, but The prevail costs triple what the squadron cost. I would think being a more expensive rod with far more room for guides, it would at the minimum have the same number if not more. Why doesn't it? And to take that further, would it benefit from adding guides?

I'm sure there's a point where you have enough, and additional guides won't result in additional performance (or cast length or sensitivity or whatever) but is there a point where you have too many? Is it possible the prevail only has 6 because a 7th would be detrimental? It seems common for surf rods to have fewer guides. But whyyyyyyy

[oc1]

The current rule of thumb is to have one guide for every foot of overall length plus one more (eight guides on a seven foot rod).  Donno who came up with it;  probably Fuji to sell more stuff.  I think that is way too many for long rods (9 ft or more).  I can't tell if all those guides have any impact on casting distance, but they definitely move the balance point and make the rod more tip-heavy and unwieldy.  Way, way back (like in the split bamboo days) a seven foot rod may have had only two or three guides and that was when there was a much higher risk of breaking the rod.  Then, there was a period in the fiberglass era when more guides was thought to reflect better rod quality.  The fashion pendulum swings.

There have been posts here about spacing guides.  Bryan had a good description of the dynamic method based on rod deflection.  The idea is to minimize how much the line can rub on the blank with a fish on (conventional tackle).  There are also charts and graphs.
-steve

[philaroman]

optimal for distance would be 4 or 5 basketball hoops on a 20-footer, but you couldn't play a fish

optimal for playing a fish would be many guides keeping the line close & parallel to the blank,
no matter how the rod bends, but that wouldn't be much of a casting tool

every rod is a compromise between the two extremes, leaning one way or the other
your 5+1 11' is a Surf Rod; your 8+1 7' is a Boat Rod

EDIT:  spinning rods, correct?

[thorhammer]

Steve hits it- the right number of guides is the number is takes to evenly distribute the stress of the line on the blank when static test is done at the recco'd operating parameters of the blank (not using 80 pound braid on a 15-30lb live bait rod and seeing if you can break an ugly stick). Spinning rods in general take less because they are larger and underslung, vs. conventional rods where the guide is lower and you should keep the line off the bend of the blank when flexed. Action comes into play here- a fast action blank may require a concentration of guides in the top quarter of the blank, then only three more in the middle half. A very heavy power, slow action rod like a Magnaflex Hatteras Heaver might be 11' conventional and have three guides and a tip (I have one hanging). I'd still have put one more, but as-is, it doesn't flex with a 16oz sinker on it...My very general rule when building is 5-6 on spinning rods, no matter the length, to keep weight down as the guides are larger...size of reel spool dictates guide size, and then spaced to the action, is a better formula IMO. Conventional rods,  6-8 depending on length, and go up to 25MM on a longer surf rod. I've seen LB rods with 10 guides and to me that's a bit of overkill, but 7-8 is nice.

[Midway Tommy]

I agree with most of what has been said. I build my own rods, lighter spinning rods only. I'm not into heavy spinners or conventionals. I like 5 + tip on 5'-6" or less and 6 + tip on 5'-8" to 7'. I am not a fan of the concept system on spinning rods but my disclaimer to that is I only use mono, never braid.  I also stretch my mono regularly. I think line diameter and mono memory is the biggest culprit of short casting abilities in mono. I have an 8' telescoping spinning rod with 3 + the tip and it casts just as far as my son's factory made 6' & 7' St Croix and Loomis rods.   

[jurelometer]

Thorhammer hit the nail on the head.  I only have a minor quibble, in that I believe the placement should be optimized at proper full load (90 degree bend), especially if you intend to cast the rod, or bend it fully during a fight.  But the difference in actual spacing (except for fly rods) is probably pretty minimal between the methods.
 
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Too many guides = more weight, more flat spots, more cost.
Too few guides = load is distributed improperly along the  blank (poor casting , less load lifting, more likely to break)

Rods with the guides on top (non-spiral wrapped conventionals) need more guides near the tip to keep the line from rubbing on the blank where the rod bends most. This is why spinning rods get by with fewer guides (on the bottom of the rod, so no line rubbing on blank).

Longer and/or slower action (more evenly bending) rods need more guides.

Basically the point of the guides is to get the line coming off the reel to track the natural curve of the blank under load.  Therefore, height (the point where the line pushes or pulls on the ring causing the rod to  bend), and placement is going to be of at least equal importance as the total number of guides. The line can leave the reel at a different distance from the blank during the fight, depending on the reel, so this can be a consideration, especially for folks around here that like those wacky tall narrow reels.

Steve is right about fashion- I think a lot of what goes into tackle is what sells best at a given price point, as opposed to what works best.

Factory guide spacing recommendations for blanks is usually pretty good IMHO, with the caveat that the reel seat locks the reel in the location that the factory recommends, and the line leaving reel height is close to what they expect. If you don't care about fighting big fish with the rod and/or are not loading the rod heavily for distance casting,  bottom guide placement is a bit less critical.

Here is a thread with all the gory details:  https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30033.msg349447#msg349447

There are also some new guide systems with formulas for placing guides to optimize casting distance, focused more on spinning rods.   I personally view these as a combination of some useful theory, and embarrassingly nonsensical marketing hype ("Infinite Reality"- HA!).

YMMV

-J

[wfjord]

I've not built any rods in quite a long time, but the newer spinning rods I've bought with improved spacing certainly cast way, way smoother and farther than my older rods. I'm currently shopping for a decent new dryer motor and trying to get my work bench set up to rebuild a bunch of my old sticks.  Thinking about the Fuji Concept and KR Concept spacing systems, and possibly a combination of the two.  Bait casters do need more guides, but the number of guides for a spinning rod is up for debate.

In the video below, Mr. Skinner briefly discusses a couple of his favorite rods.  The rod he's holding only has four guides.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Good answers, everyone. As usual I've learned useful info, so the dumb question was worth asking. I believe the takeaway here is leave what I have alone.

[Rivverrat]

 The truth is, no math or formula exist that will give proper guide lay for all blanks.

It's just not possible. Load test as described is the accepted way among most professionals. Rod needs to be braced where the persons hands will be whith fish on.

 Reel is placed in reel seat guides are strung a weight is tied to end. Rod is place in pipe or fixture to hold at angle. One pulls on the tip while allowing the weight to keep line tight. Do not pull the line. Bend the rod by hand at the tip allowing weight to keep line tight.

 Some standard off the rack rods are doing well to have a guide per ft. Longer spin rods can get by with fewer guides because the blank is being pulled. Guides are being pulled & not being pushed into the rod blank as they are with a conventional set up with rod loaded.
 
Line comes off a spinner much different. The line coming off a spinner reacts differently with the guides.

 Total number of guides can change for various reasons.

 Rod in the pictures is a rod for Mike
" MO " .  Its a 7' conventional. At present it has a total of 9 guides + tip. 6 of those guides & tip are in the last 23" of the rod. Mike will use mostly 40 lb. line with no knots to pass through so we're using size 8 guides. Most of the time using 8's vs 10's at least one more guide is needed because tge 8's aren't as tall

The pic where I'm bending the rod the guides rolled off the spine / center. Any way makes it easier to see whats being
talked about... Jeff



   

[Gfish]

Good answers, everyone. As usual I've learned useful info, so the dumb question was worth asking. I believe the takeaway here is leave what I have alone.

Come-on Dude, the only dumb questions are the ones you don't ask. I usually learn stuff from every thread, especially those that begin with a question.

[Rivverrat]

Gfish is right.while few people understand rod building. They don't need to. This site does I believe exist to help any one with any questions regarding fishing & the tools used.  
THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS HERE !

 Since coming here I now know when looking a reel over if it will meet my expectations.
Prior my expectations weren't in line with what the reel was designed to do... Jeff

[Cor]

One point I don't see mentioned is the issue of keeping the line away from your hand with a conventional rod under load.   This applies mostly to those of us that use a rear fitted conventional reel.

Often it's desirable to have a fairly long gap between the last guide and the reel when using fast action blanks.   Modern blanks all seem to be softer in the but section then in the past and under load the line then touches your hand which is not good, particularly in the case of braid.

A photo to show the issue.

I would overcome that by spacing the last guide closer to the reel, using a higher guide, more guides, higher reel, finding a more suitable blank, or even fitting the reel seat offset, in a way that it increases that gap.

[Bryan Young]

This is not an easy answer. It comes down to the rod wrapper, guides used, blank, and $$$.

My first starting point is:

Spinners - 1 guide for every foot plus the tip.

Conventionals - 1 guide for every foot plus 2 guides plus the tip.

There is one major assumption. I love extra fast and fast blanks. I need to control the bend of the rod so I get proper loading at the fast tip and enough guides to allow the backbone of the blank to come into play when I am near the blank's limit.

I posted about my line spacing somewhere. But the best spacing is 1 the line cannot tough the blank in any condition for flexing the blank to its max to casting. There is a balance that can o let come after the initial line spacing, flexing the rod moving them were the line entering and exiting the guide is the same angle. Then taking the rod out with the intended reel and casting, listing for any line slaps. Then adjust the guides to reduce the line slaps, which means that one may need to add another guide to reduce the line's ability to slap the blank. Once I get the distance set, I review the line ring size and ring height. I run the line through all of the guides and then tape the line to the center of the spool knob for spinners and center the line for bait casters and conventionals. I will then change the ring size and height of each guide so that the line secured as noted, only touches the tip ring.  I then take the rod out for some casting and see how it flies and sounds. If it sounds like the line is choking at the stripper guide, I move the striper guide up a 1/2" at a time until it disappears then adjust the remaking guides by the static loading method. Run the line through the guides JD see that the guide only touches the tip. Height and ring size adjustment is done again. Then go casting again. Then I experiment if I can reduce 1 or 2 guides and cast and static load again to see if it made a difference in casting and flexing.

I have found that it's difficult for a hobbiest to do things this way because you will need a host of different guides, size and height, before you come up with the optimum arrangement.  But if you can, you will be more than satisfied with the way it casts and how it loads while fighting a monster fish for the rod.

Hope this helps. BTW, I hate recommended standard guide spacing. It's a good place start though. But I would still use my method in the end to set the guide spacings.

[smnaguwa]

Have rod/rod blank manufacturers used high resolution videography to determine guide spacing? Especially for spinning rods where the line comes off in spirals? Rod blank manufacturers could have different recommendations for different guide types.

[Bryan Young]

and by the way, I love my interline rods where there are no guides, only the point in which the line enters the rod blank and a top that the line exits the rod blank.