Improved line lay and the future of spinning reel gearing.

[Midway Tommy]

This is a link to the study  engineering study. Interesting gearing concept for spinning reels of the future.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Are you sure that's not a pic with a funny aspect ratio? Apr 1 is still a bit away

[philaroman]

I thought you didn't like worm-O, as unnecessarily partsy/fiddly
this seems pretty close in complexity...  wonder how it compares functionally

[Midway Tommy]

I thought you didn't like worm-O, as unnecessarily partsy/fiddly
this seems pretty close in complexity...  wonder how it compares functionally

The link in my post goes to 11 pages of engineering info.

[jurelometer]

This one does have a April 1 vibe (Chinese Journal of Mechanical Engineering ? ) , but after a quick reading, the concept is pretty straightforward.  Here is my summary:


The most simple classic rotary to oscillating linear motion mechanism for a spinning reel is a scotch yoke.  Check out the description and a nice animation here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_yoke

A Scotch yoke is useful when you want to gradually ease into dwell toward both ends (more degrees of rotary motion required per mm linear travel at the end of the stroke)

Not so good with a spinning reel when you want consistent line lay.  You want consistent travel distance per degree of rotation of the rotor.  But (IMHO),  a scotch yoke IS also useful in a spinning reel in that the linear motion slows down as it goes through the change of direction, which  should make for a smoother retrieve.

They propose using a pair of cam shaped gears to drive the yoke.  The shape of the cam controls the rotary to linear travel conversion.  The gear teeth ensure a continuous transmission of power. 

The problem is that you need lots of gears (a drive gear, a "receiver" gear, and two cam gears). Two of these gears are a specialized oval shape, which is more expensive to cut.  And you will end up with a sudden reversal of direction if the cam shape is optimized for even line lay.  Not sure how easy it would be to make this into a durable mechanism.

It is probably difficult to build this in a low cost way that will still be as easy winding as existing mechanisms.

Or something like that.  Proposed in 2015.  I am curious if this ever hit the market.

I am not a spinning reel guy, but I thought that uneven even line lay is generally not an issue with most spinning reel designs as long as you position the spool correctly by shimming.

This is the thing that I like about spinners. No shortage of guys looking for yet another way to skin the cat. 

Thanks for posting this Tommy.  Now I know what a scotch yoke is


-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

Ok jokes aside I'd like to point out a few things. For one, they show a pic of the gears, that they had manufactured for this project, in an assembled reel. But I did not see a pic of the spool to show how smooth the resulting line lay is. It's like that one video about the air wave guides where they built 2 identical rods on identical blanks differing only by guide type but didn't show the side by side casting comparison they went out to make. IF THIS IS AN IMPROVEMENT, SHOW US!!!

Also, offhand I can think of two spinners I own that don't have work oscillation but do have very smooth straight line lay. My older spheros FA and FB (large models are wormed small models are not), and my daiwa BG. Both use the traditional locomotive oscillation, but unlike the old penn SS and I assume many other spinners, it's not just a circle peg in a long oval groove, the peg is asymmetrical and so is the groove. The BG line lay is also asymmetrical but they swear up and down its intentional.

So in summary, the problem has been solved already, using a mod to a much simpler mechanism. I applaud the boldness of the attempt, but I won't be first in line to gamble on an unproven system that's needlessly complex. 

[Gfish]

Interesting, thanks Tommy, lost a little bit in translation, though. Yeah, I'd like to see that "scotch yolk" ——oval gear reel and try it out.
I like the worm gear type design on the Abu Garcia Suveran. It's only 3 main parts, the worm is cut right into the spool shaft. However, I've never put line on it to see how it lays...

[nelz]

I find the Okuma "eliptical gearing" system lays it as good as it gets.   And it's pretty simple too.

[Gfish]

Which reel Nelz? I'd like to look at the schematic. I know that on conventionals with worm gear levelwinders, the line lay is slightly adjustable, but never perfectly even for me.

[jurelometer]

I find the Okuma "eliptical gearing" system lays it as good as it gets.   And it's pretty simple too.

Oooooh, so somebody did try the non-round gears!  Okuma's design is a simpler version of the one in the paper, as it makes the drive gear on the handle shaft elliptical. So only two gears, both elliptical, and then a standard straight slotted scotch yoke. Make sure you put them back together synchronized, or something bad is going to happen 

Here is Alan Hawk's review of an Okuma with the elliptical gears:

https://www.alanhawk.com/reviews/okvs8.html


Per Jason's comment, it does look like a less complicated/more popular way to skin the cat is to use an S-curve in the the yoke slot. Controlling the shape of the "s" has the same effect on evening out oscillation as elliptical/cam shaped gears, but with less complexity.  It looks like Okuma's high end Makaira spinners use an "S" yoke, so that tells us something.

Regarding the Suveran worm style oscillation - the limitation with this design choice is going to be strength.  Probably fine for smaller reels, but if you intend to wind under heavy load, there is not much room to bulk up the worm assembly (I am curious as to what exactly goes into the worm slot)  Plus the manufacturing has to be top notch to get everything to run smoothly.  No free lunch.  But back then, I doubt that winding under heavy load was much of a consideration.  I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a Suveran if I was a spinner guy.  Pretty interesting reels.


-J

[nelz]

Which reel Nelz? I'd like to look at the schematic.

I have a first generation Helios HX40s spinner with the green aluminum trim. Once you get the spool shims adjusted for your line type, the line lay is perfect. It casts brilliantly too. The C40X carbon frame lives up to the hype as well. Never thought I'd go for "graphite" til I tried this out.

You won't find anything much different in the schem, but yes the gears are oval and must be properly aligned when servicing, it's really not a big deal.

As for Alan Hawk's opinion, what can I say, my real world results speak for themselves. Then again, he tested a different model and in a much larger size as well. I enjoy and respect his reviews but don't always agree with everything he says.

[oldmanjoe]

This is a link to the study  engineering study. Interesting gearing concept for spinning reels of the future.

Very interesting reading .  I think they are just complicating the gear case with more parts . 

[nelz]

Q: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran     

[oldmanjoe]

Which reel Nelz? I'd like to look at the schematic.

I have a first generation Helios HX40s spinner with the green aluminum trim. Once you get the spool shims adjusted for your line type, the line lay is perfect. It casts brilliantly too. The C40X carbon frame lives up to the hype as well. Never thought I'd go for "graphite" til I tried this out.

You won't find anything much different in the schem, but yes the gears are oval and must be properly aligned when servicing, it's really not a big deal.

As for Alan Hawk's opinion, what can I say, my real world results speak for themselves. Then again, he tested a different model and in a much larger size as well. I enjoy and respect his reviews but don't always agree with everything he says.

How does it feel when cranking with a load on the line ,can you feel the lobes change over through the crank handle  ?

[Gfish]

Q: What's the world's most over-rated reel? A: Suveran     

HA! That could be. Mine is one shelfie, out of four different shelfie spinners;  box, paperwork and all. I reviewed the stuff Allen Hawk left out of his review. I found too many major plastic composite parts, albeit uniquely designed and engineered. None seemed to be in high stress areas, though.