Questions with a 118 (16/0) rebuild

dogdad1 · February 20, 2012, 08:37:49 PM

A couple (ok, 'several') questions while tearing down a Penn 118 (16/0), if I may. And between just the probable age of the reel and the fact that a couple of the post screwheads are 'buggered-up', I'm pretty sure I'm not the first one in it, so some of this may be a bit like re-building Humpty-Dumpty.

1)   I counted 5 thick drag washers, yet Scott's schematic shows a total of 7. I'm not sure what material they are (and I'm not sure which is which in Alto Mare's excellent tutorial).
a.   How many should I have?
b.   Is the quantity a matter of HT100 vs original, or maybe is it in getting the right drag setting?
c.   And I'm reading that HT-100 is now the preferred type. Grease or not?
2)   Similarly, I have 5 metal drag washers and not 7 (per schematic & Alto). Same question: how many should I have?
3)   This is the only teardown that I've done that has actual spool ball-bearings.
a.   Do they get grease, or oil? Alto's tutorial shows grease, but the others I'm doing (a 67LongBeach and 500Jigmaster, so far) have more like a sleeve or bushing instead, and say "oil" on the face.
b.   Which does the 67 & 500 (et al) get?
4)   I managed to save the #14 Dog Spring (which is more than I can say for the 67LongBeach after I opened it – gotta remember to get LOTS of spares!), but the schematic also shows a little v-shaped piece as well which I didn't see – nor is it in Alto's tutorial. Was it superseded/optional/incorrect?
5)   This one may be a bit confusing, but here goes. The washer in #86 position that I removed is a red fiber material, while Scott's & Alto seems to show a metal washer. I had a beveled washer for #8, a flat washer with 2 inside flats for #49, and nothing for #4.
a.   If I understand this so far, I need to put an HT-100 washer for #4, get a new tension spring/washer for #8, and put the washer with the flats for #49, right?
b.   Alto went too fast for the #86 location, while Scott's seems to indicate 2 different washers at #86. Do I use just the beveled washer for #86? If not, I'm lost...
6)   One more question (for now, anyways). I found 3 very thin copper(?) washers on the left side between the bearing and spool itself and 5 more correspondingly on the right side, which don't show up from Alan or the schematic. Should they be there? Are they just shims to align/space everything properly? Comments?

I apologize for the lengthy post, but I want to get these right.

PS: My questions remind me of the time I tried my hand at restoring English Sports Cars for awhile, and for that I now forgive myself for my thoughts at the time. A guy came in with LITERALLY a shoebox of parts, and said he'd tried to rebuild the carburetors himself but couldn't do it. So he'd gathered up everything (new and old parts mixed together, as well as a few extras as I found out later) and brought them to me. He said it shouldn't be that tough for someone with my experience, and therefore wasn't willing to pay an outrageous price. I tried to prove him right, but I ended up eating my shirt on that job.

Thanks, y'all.

Alto Mare · February 21, 2012, 01:26:06 AM

Hello dogdad1,
(1)Your reel comes with (5) washers, upgrading to carbon fiber washers will bring you to (7), The carbon and metal washers in the (7) kit are thinner, that is why you'll need two more. The material of the (5) drags is similar to the brake pads on cars, but if you have an older model it could be aspestos. No matter if you use (5) drag stack or (7) you should always end with a metal keyed washer and the metal beveled washer last. By the way, a touch of Cal's grease on the drags is a good thing.
(2)Same as above.
(3)Bearings on a reel of this size should always be greased, as for the smaller reels...it's up to you, either is fine.
(4)Sorry don't know much about the v-shape piece.
(5)Here is how I do it from the bridge plate, hang in there:
carbon-main gear-carbon-keyed-carbon-eared-carbon-keyed-carbon-eared-carbon-keyed-carbon-eared-carbon-keyed-beveled-drag cover-tension spring-star drag-handle spacer-handle. I hope I didn't lose you.
(6)Yes, the copper washers are spacers, used to keep the spool centered and to minimize sideway play...if you have too much play.
I hope that this is helpful, don't apologize for the long post, next time I just won't answer you. Just kidding, that's what we're here for, take care, Sal

dogdad1 · February 21, 2012, 02:44:21 AM

Perfect, absolutely perfect, Sal. Thank you so much. It feels like you're right there next to me... pointing out my errors.

Is the carbon-fiber washers the same as HT-100?
Perhaps the little v-piece doesn't actually exist in the reel?

This information will also come in very useful when I get into some of the others I'll be working on. I can already see that Penn reels in general mostly differ only in size of the parts (with obvious exceptions like LevelWinds, etc). I now understand some of the posts asking things like if so-and-so part can be swapped from model to another. Nice.

Thanks again,
Ron

Makule · February 21, 2012, 05:19:43 AM

QuoteThis is the only teardown that I've done that has actual spool ball-bearings.
a. Do they get grease, or oil?

Higher speeds require lower viscousity lubrication in order to stay on the part. Since the diameter of the 16/0 is so large, the shaft on the bearing will turn relatively slowly. Additionally, grease generally has the ability to withstand higher pressures than oils, so a larger reels needs a heavier lube like grease. Smaller reels for casting require a lighter lube because of the very high spindle speeds (less drags and "sticks" better to the bearing surfaces). They also don't need to withstand as high pressures so oils are preferred.

Quote
the schematic also shows a little v-shaped piece as well which I didn't see – nor is it in Alto's tutorial

Are you referring to the actual dog? Can you post and image of the part you're referring to?

dogdad1 · February 21, 2012, 11:51:22 AM

Ok, your explanation of grease vs oil makes it clearer. Makule. I was going with the idea that grease is a lot less susceptible to wash-out in water than oil and therefore more 'stickier' and the preferred lube for something that sees periodic splashing and immersion. And you're right about the viscosity, I can just see my old 650SS with some 100-wt gear-grease in it, probably break off the handle before it moves.

I'm guessing the little v-piece is a red herring, since no one has one. Attached is a cutaway of part of the schematic (with apologies to Penn, et al), with the piece in question one of the two labeled #14 down in the lower-right. The reason I'm so stuck on this is because I've already launched the dog-spring for a 67 out into space (and barely missing the Space Station from what NASA said), and wasn't sure if I missed seeing this one on the launch-pad before it left.

Y'all have been so terrific so far (not to mention patient) as I take these baby-steps. I only hope that I can return the favors some day. Many thanks to all.

Irish Jigger · February 21, 2012, 12:47:45 PM

You're right dogdad1,it's the Dog Spring. Easily made by cutting a strip off a s/steel razor blade using scissors. Great reel.

Bryan Young · February 21, 2012, 05:15:10 PM

Ron,

HT-100s are carbon fiber washers. It's Penn's designation for their carbon fiber washers.

Bryan

Alto Mare · February 21, 2012, 05:30:45 PM

Ron, may I ask where you got that picture from? A 16/0 does not come with that type of dog that you're showing, also the dog spring on a 16/0 is coiled not flat. Other parts on that picture are also mismatched. If that reel does exist I want it, It's probably worth some money

.

Irish Jigger · February 21, 2012, 07:07:31 PM

Looks like some changes have been made since the schematics were printed.

http://schematics.planetseafishing.com/downloads/penn/multiplier/senator-series/118.pdf

Alto Mare · February 21, 2012, 09:39:38 PM

As much as it is hard for me to believe, I think that Scott's has made a little boo-boo on this one.
That schematic is no right.

dogdad1 · February 21, 2012, 09:41:08 PM

Ok, now where's that little head-smacking icon when you need it? Guess I'll go with the 'confused' one

for now.

My schematic came from Scott's website (I hope that's ok to mention, and I haven't performed some sort of terrible gaff?) and I never compared it to anything else, assuming that since it said "Penn" it was golden. I think I'll get up from crawling around on the floor and stop looking for that piece for now, sounds like it may not exist.

Again, thanks for everyone's help so far. I'm finding that this reel-fixing business is kinda frustrating but awful addicting, gotta say that!!

Alto Mare · February 21, 2012, 09:54:21 PM

Ron, everything that I mentioned earlier is right, you should be ok. The dog spring should be coiled not flat.

redsetta · February 21, 2012, 10:04:22 PM

QuoteI'm finding that this reel-fixing business is kinda frustrating but awful addicting...

Good call Ron - the challenge is half the fun.
Step by step...

Good luck, Justin

Makule · February 22, 2012, 02:02:49 AM

Sal is correct: The 14/0 and 16/0 came with coiled dog springs and the dog was not the same as on the smaller Senators (had a little lip to hold the spring if I recall correctly).

dogdad1 · February 24, 2012, 02:29:28 PM

Ah-ha! And here I thought I was going mad. Thanks to everyone for confirming my configuration. I feel a bit more confident now, and will proceed with caution.

In studying the 113 Tutorial again in preparation for dissecting my 113, I came across a discussion about the same little v-piece spring that shows in the Penn 118 schematic but really isn't there. I think I may have run across that thread before and somehow got it imprinted in my head that I had one of those too but it had taken flight during my teardown. Hence my confusion.

I guess too much knowledge CAN be a dangerous thing! I'll try to set my bar lower next time.