Pinion bushing vs bearing on lever drags

[jurelometer]

Star drag reels do not have enough sideloading to worry about, usualy from angular cut gears,  but LD reels put a lot of side load on the pinion bearings. The best cure is two thrust bearings, second best is flanged angular contact bearings.

The pressure on the ratchet of a star drag is not a issue. How many ratchets on gearsleves have you seen fail not counting stripped teeth?  Zero for me.  How much handle resistance does cranking down a star drag cause? None.  Delron or HT-100/Carbontex underwashers hardly ever fail, if at all, due to thrust.

I think you might be missing my point, which is simply that the undergear washer in a star drag is an example a of highly loaded thrust washer (plain bearing) being used in a reel.  It is also noted that the coefficient of friction demands are different between the star drag and lever drag cases- so it is not an exact comparison. 

Don't know how far we want to go down this rathole.  I think there is a reasonable discussion to be had on what type/size/design with a  thrust washer might work on a lever drag pinion bearing, and how that would compare to a solution with a ball style thrust bearing, or just a  ball bearing.  But somebody has to be willing to do the design work and a bit of math. At this point, I just don't see any evidence to  categorically rule out a thrust washer based design.

Outting a side load on a non thrust bearings wear them out quick and do not take a shock load, like dropping a Avet MX 6' with the drag set and on a rod.  This can crack the inter race and/or  dammage the cage. Ihave seen this happen.

Interesting about dropping and shock load.

I don't think I would go as far as saying that any amount of axial (side) load is on a deep groove bearing is unacceptable. Manufacturers publish an axial load rating (usually around 25% of radial load) that is supported for continuous operation.  I would tend to follow their specifications with a bit of a safety factor for longevity.  Once the axial load requirement gets too high, upsizing the deep groove ball bearing is no longer practical, and then you need something else to handle the thrust- such as a thrust bearing.

Getting back to deep groove ball bearings: I think that the bigger problem is that the lever drag design with a preset knob and a cam on a lever makes it easy to blow past the axial load limit.  It is too late once you go a bit too far past the load limit.  The bearing will be trashed.

I have thought a bit about how to design a lever drag that would prevent you from setting the load too high.  An easy problem to solve if you are measuring and setting one reel at a time, but a bit harder problem if you are churning out reels in a factory. It would add some cost, but I think should still be doable.  But it may be the same cost/complexity to just go to thrust bearings, and not have to worry about it at all.

-J

[jurelometer]

MAybe a thick nylon or delrin bushing in place of the bearing?

you need a flat round surface (think like a disk) for the thrust.  It turns out that you can get higher load ratings by using a thinner thrust washer for PTFE based products (e.g. Rulon).  These have to be mated to a stiff metal backing. and the sliding surfaces have to be well aligned, which may make it more difficult to pull off in a pinion/shaft/cam assembly.  But if (a big if) the surfaces can be kept well aligned, the material itself won't have a problem with heavy loads at lower RPMS.  It is not going to squish, melt or need lubrication.

For example Both Rulon and Delrin are used used for the sliding surfaces (ways) on metalworking machinery such as lathes and milling machines.  This is more demanding than a fishing reel.

Nylon is softer, absorbs water, and does not maintain dimensional accuracy. So not a good match. 

Also, a ball type thrust bearing has an advantage in handling misalignment.

-J

[Keta]

Deep groove pinion bearings fail in LD reels, a well known fact.  Under continously side load they wear out and fail prematurely.

The load on the underwasher of a star drag is of no concern.

The cure for handle loading at reasonable drag settings is easy, put in real thrust washers.

[jurelometer]

I often read the back-n-forth conversations on this board and wonder to myself, if reel companies have investigated using software tools to help them engineer better designs.

Anything coming from a big company nowadays is being designed with software suites that allow them to draw up the parts, combine parts into assemblies, select and drop in third party parts like bearings, output gcode for input into the CNC machines to cut parts and make molds.  Not mention stress/load analysis tools that works well on parts, and so-so on assemblies. 

Not super hard to do the software,  I taught myself, and could design and churn out the easier parts on CNC machines, but I never got beyond rudimentary load testing. The pros go through a training  program. I expect that this is part of a college mechanical engineering curriculum nowadays.

The software just takes some of the cost out.  You still need somebody to come up with the design.  And you have to be willing to invest enough time and and money to go through enough iterations (including real world testing)  to get the best product possible.

-J

[Keta]

CAD and CNC are some of the best tools ever invented.  Complex parts can be cut that in the past were either time consuming or impossible to manufacture.
I watched my watercutter put a block of aluminum a jig in his triple axis CNC mill, 20 minutes later he flipped the block and 10 minutes later a AR 15 lower receiver was done.

[oldmanjoe]

   https://www.nationalprecision.com/info-library/technical-data/miniature-bearing-information/

   The angular contact bearing is designed with a relieved shoulder to allow for a greater number of balls, thereby increasing its load-carrying capability. The angular contact design also allows for the use of a full section cage which is desirable for high speed applications. This type of bearing can handle thrust loads in one direction only.

[Keta]

The on direction side loading is why I suggest a flanged angular contact bearin.  They would have to be left and right.

[jurelometer]

From what I have read, the angular contact bearings that are generally available are designed for tight tolerances, which means that you need excellent alignment (which you are not going to find on a fishing reel).  I don't know if this a function of market demand or something inherent about angular contact bearing design. 

One of the desirable attributes of standard deep groove ball bearings is the ability to tolerate a decent amount of misalignment.

Higher RPMs are not that useful for this particular bearing, because it only turns when you are turning the handle. Not that useful for the other side of the spool either.

I haven't tried dropping in an angular contact bearing, but seem to remember seeing a report or two where it did not help much.  Maybe  there was an implementation issue or maybe a problem with alignment.

There are more reels coming out nowadays with a single thrust bearing, but cannot recall one advertising an angular contact bearing.  There must be a reason.  ACBs are pretty well known.

-J

[JasonGotaProblem]

So on a vintage spinner, the pinion rides on a brass bushing, and a spool shaft slides up and down inside of it with, for the most part, no trouble. But I imagine there's not a ton of load present and the issue seems to be what happens when load increases.
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if two concentric bushings (the inner one being able to slide back and forth a bit within the outer) might be able to handle the axial load better? I think I need to draw a sketch.

[Keta]

LD reels put a lot of thrust on the bearings.

Even with Avet's relitively loose but more than acceptable tolerance(actualy a good thing on reels) angular contact bearings will work.  The RPMs are far lower than a trailer hubs and spindles and the tolerances of modern reels is as good or better.  Properly set up and lubed trailer bearings get far more "miles" on them than a reel.   Real world not book.

However true thrust bearings on both sides of the spool is the real answer.

[jurelometer]

So on a vintage spinner, the pinion rides on a brass bushing, and a spool shaft slides up and down inside of it with, for the most part, no trouble. But I imagine there's not a ton of load present and the issue seems to be what happens when load increases.
I'm probably wrong, but I'm wondering if two concentric bushings (the inner one being able to slide back and forth a bit within the outer) might be able to handle the axial load better? I think I need to draw a sketch.

I am confused.  The axial load issue comes into play on spinning reels in two ways:

1. Drag clamping force (isolated to the drag stack)

2.  Oscillation when winding under load ( isolated to the oscillation assembly)

There should be little axial load on the pinion.  Depending on the gear design, some radial load is transferred to axial load, but that is about it.

Can you enlighten us a bit more on what exactly you are trying to address?

-J

[jurelometer]

LD reels put a lot of thrust on the bearings.

Even with Avet's relitively loose but more than acceptable tolerance(actualy a good thing on reels) angular contact bearings will work.  The RPMs are far lower than a trailer hubs and spindles and the tolerances of modern reels is as good or better.  Properly set up and lubed trailer bearings get far more "miles" on them than a reel.  Real world not book.

However true thrust bearings on both sides of the spool is the real answer.

Have you tried putting angular contact bearings in an Avet, and if so how did it turn out?  Or is your claim based on experience with other machinery?

On the real world vs book learning thing:

I admit to having little patience for engineering folk who think they can design a mechanical device without significant real world feedback and even less patience for anti-intellectualists that discount the value of a scientific approach.

We have pretty good discussions here when we combine both.  When we pit one side against the other things usually go sideways.

The example of a car/trailer spindle is useful (although in my limited experience I have only seen tapered roller bearings used):  Unlike deep groove ball bearings, angular contact bearings always need a minimum amount of axial load to work properly. The clamping load on these bearings has to be set to a specified load for the bearings to last.  Too loose is no bueno.

More on this in a separate post.

-J

[Keta]

Spinners in general baffle me. I have no problem doing 2 and 3 speed lever drag reels and have been successful with Diawa e-reels but hate dealing with most modern spinning reels.

The spool only spins when line is going out under drag, the only "side loading" is the tension from the drag knob.  The thrust a LD  drag cam puts on a pinion bearing is far greater than what you can get with the drag knob on a spinner. A bronze plain bearings or possably a "plastic" like Orkot are more than adequate.

[JasonGotaProblem]

Ok bear with me. I do cad for a living but it's civil engineering work not mechanical, And I didn't put too much time into this.

Assume oil everywhere.
The pinion can spin in the inner bushing, which can spin in the outer bushing, and the inner bushing can slide in as drag is increased and the very light Belleville helps it slide back out as drag is decreased.

Didn't say it was a good idea. But I did say I'd sketch it. And I'll be clear that even if this is a viable approach it would need oiling more often than a ball bearing

[Keta]

The bellville will create friction and reduce the travel of the drag plate more than the existing bellville washers, reducing the maximum possible drag. The drag loss issue can be addressed  by  redesigning the existing drag cam.  Replacing the bellville washer with a thrust washer would work but then you have extra parts taking up space.