Gearing / Reel Strength

[OldSchool]

I have read where questions may be asked about upgrading a drag and it has been commented more than once that the pinion will not take the load, anti reverse pawl etc. Is this an experienced based conclusion.

With consideration to gear material used,diameters and thickness is there a mathematical calculation to determine what a particular gear set would withstand in terms of drag pressure or any rules of thumbs that can be generically applied.

Alternatively how do you know how much of an increase in drag capacity you can go before you wreck the internals of the reel.

[Keta]

I had some "sets" of eared/keyed metal drag washers cut that I plan on using for a distructive test on reels but I'm reluctant to destroy a reel or parts that are hard to come by.  I'd like to do it to a 500/112H size reel first.

[Makule]

Some of my Penn Senator (and other) reels have had the pinion and main gears damaged due to excessive drag, using the stock drag material and setup.  It is entirely possible that the gears were already worn from use, and that the extreme conditions that they were subjected to caused the damage to occur.  Reasonably, upgrading the gear material in order to increase the drag would have hastened the damage.

Yes, there is a design engineer calculation to determine how much pressure can be applied before failure of a gear tooth will occur.  I do not know what this formula is, but I do know that engineers must use the information in order to size various parts used in reels.  Certainly, brass is the softest/weakest material used, then come the steels (hardened and SS).  Hardened SS is likely the best in terms of strength/wear traits, and offers resistance to rust, which is important in salt water applications.  The point being that increasing the drag washer material may change the amount of drag available, and the different gear (and other component) materials will be able to handle that increased load to varying degrees, depending on what they are made of.  Without knowing what the specific material is, the formula is useless because one needs to start with the strength of the material to calculate working strength or the part.

Another consideration is this:  Nothing lasts forever.  Given enough time and use, everything will wear out and break down.  My reels may have been able to handle the stress if they were new and well maintained.  They were old, very well used, and poorly maintained.  Failure should not have been unexpected (but if the car keeps rolling you keep using it until the wheels fall off).   How you use your reels and how well you maintain them will significantly affect their longevity and performance.  Once you start messing around with the innards, know that you may be pushing the limits of what they were designed for (even though some were designed with a lot of "fudge factor" included).

[Ron Jones]

We use the phrase "Hot Rod" often when it comes to reels, and I think it is apropriate. Swapping parts then using the reel at its limits will increase wear. But it's a lot of fun until it don't work no more!

To sum up. You can ketch all the smelt you want with a Penn International 50 and 100 pound line, but it you use 1 pound test floro on a drop line, the smelt will eventually break it.

Ron

[akfish]

I frequently have to replace the gears in reels I work on. The main culprits are Penn 330s and 113Hs that people fish for halibut. Generally the gears go out before the bridges, but bridges fail frequently as well. What I don't know is whether the gears and bridges would last longer if they were fished with the same drag but on a metal framed reel. My guess is that heavy drag torques the frame and causes the gears to misalign. A metal frame wold prevent some of this. My point is that bumping up the drag is going to inevitably cause some sort of problem unless other modifications are made to the reel. Inevitably.

[Alto Mare]

I agree Bill with everything you said. Reel needs to be balanced, so parts play nicely together. Take the 49 for example, the gears are too strong for the gear sleeve, to me that reel is not balanced properly. I've seen my share of damaged gear sleeves on the 49, they're just too small....Alan came to the rescue though, with the ss sleeve. The 49 needs it more than many others.
We've been playing with a lot of projects here and trying our best to make them work flawlessly.
To answer your question, too many things come into play, even how you fish the reel. The best answer would be: When making upgrades, the reel will give you that answer if you did good or not.

[Killerbug]

I have read where questions may be asked about upgrading a drag and it has been commented more than once that the pinion will not take the load, anti reverse pawl etc. Is this an experienced based conclusion.

With consideration to gear material used,diameters and thickness is there a mathematical calculation to determine what a particular gear set would withstand in terms of drag pressure or any rules of thumbs that can be generically applied.

Alternatively how do you know how much of an increase in drag capacity you can go before you wreck the internals of the reel.

http://www.oerlikon.com/fairfield/en/media/downloads/gear-design-software/

[OldSchool]

Killerbug, looks promising enough to be dangerous. Cheers for the link.

Specifically Seascape where a reel manufacturer in Australia late 60's early 70's and made an overhead (conventional) reel with freespool design. All metal construction and built like a tank. The main gear 54 tooth is made from manganese bronze and the pinion 11 tooth from high tensile steel (type not specified). As with a number of reels in the USA of the era they are built well enough that they are still about and fully functional with little problem, inclusive of surface finish. However drag materials range from oiled leather to fiber to Bakelite and materials today far exceed the performance of those materials.

As these materials are well short of today's and the difference is significant it stands to reason the reel was made (engineered) to or exceeding its theoretical limits and once you belt in some fancy 21st century material its potentially a reel over-stressing proposition.

I was looking determine how to the avoid any damage.

[Ron Jones]

Really the only way to know is to try. The Penn reels started before the 1940s. Their failure characteristics are well documented and their is a relativly straightforward path to improving strength and performance. Without that experience, you just look at the reel and try to determine the best path and then go easy.

Ron

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

Kinda off topic but do they make a SS bridge for a 9/0?

[bradz]

I have wanted to chime in on this issue for a long time but thought I would sit on the sidelines.

Theoretically, only the dog (or AR bearing) and the dog ratchet should be taking the load. Most dog ratchets only have about 12 teeth, and they are very chunky teeth at that. There should be little to no problems in that area.

I figured that most gear (pinion and main) failures would occur when the user is trying to winch in a fish, rather than using the rod to take the load and then wind down. I was taught along time ago that you lift the fish with the rod and retrieve the line with the reel.

I realise that in the States you "fish the rail" in some forms of fishing and this takes away the "pump and wind" technique, but this would also put most of the strain on the pinion and main gear because you are in effect winching.

Can someone else tell me if my logic is sound?

[Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B]

nothing lasts forever unless you put in a museaum (hardly or not use it  at all). my father once said that if a car has no defects it will last a long time, of course he also mentioned with regular preventive maintenance. now imo this applies to any man made objects/things (anything mechanical, electronics etc.). i think this eventually  goes back to using anything within its limits. now there are some of us that would go beyond these limits and to be honest i'm one those people, of course this is after some modifictions. i've been doingg this thing since i bought my first car in 1982, my 1st RC car in 1990 and when i discovered that in the fishing world there also exist "after-market parts". now if only all the "military grade materials" are available to us anglers  maybe then maybe we can create an indestructible reel. then of course this is just a DREAM. my 2 pennies...

[Robert Janssen]

Can someone else tell me if my logic is sound?

Yes.

Theoretically, only the dog (or AR bearing) and the dog ratchet should be taking the load. Most dog ratchets only have about 12 teeth, and they are very chunky teeth at that. There should be little to no problems in that area.

Generally speaking, yes, but it depends a bit on the design of the reel in question. Some reels, like a Penn International for instance, have antireverse dogs acting directly upon the drag unit immediately adjacent to the spool. This allows the gears to remain essentially free from load until the handle is cranked 'round by the angler.

Other reels, like a Penn Senator for instance, use a drag system whose antireverse dogs act upon the main gear, which in turn entails that the gears are essentially always under load.

.

[Keta]

I have wanted to chime in on this issue for a long time but thought I would sit on the sidelines.

Theoretically, only the dog (or AR bearing) and the dog ratchet should be taking the load. Most dog ratchets only have about 12 teeth, and they are very chunky teeth at that. There should be little to no problems in that area.

I figured that most gear (pinion and main) failures would occur when the user is trying to winch in a fish, rather than using the rod to take the load and then wind down. I was taught along time ago that you lift the fish with the rod and retrieve the line with the reel.

I realise that in the States you "fish the rail" in some forms of fishing and this takes away the "pump and wind" technique, but this would also put most of the strain on the pinion and main gear because you are in effect winching.

Can someone else tell me if my logic is sound?

Most fishermen do not know how to properly pump in a fish (I blame fishing TV for this and other bad behavior when fishing, the bass master hook set is another), improper pumping works hooks loose and allows the fish to turn it's head and go the wrong direction.  In the last 10 years or so I've gotten away from pumping most of the time.  You can also use the rail to pump a fish when it's below the boat.

[Ron Jones]

My grandfather had a saying, "the pole brings the fish in, the reel holds the line." It's worked my whole life. I would say it is less "pumping" then using the strength and mechanical advantage of the rod to control the fish. "Pumping" does in fact open up oportunities to let the line slack and therefore provide the fish an oportunity for escape. Using the pole to control the fish allows the fisherman to collect line when opportunity exists, reducing wear and tear on equipment.

Ron