spool bushings vs. spool bearings

[Killerbug]

are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings?  i can't think of any, can you?

I can, but it depends what kind of fishing reels we are talking about.  If we are talking about the spool bushings in the older Penn's and alike, not much to gain functionality wise. But if you mean medium size baitcasters, brass bushings are way better than bearings in many ways, and is still used in the red Amb reels.

But brass bushings are boring, the just run and run under extreme pressure, don't rust, don't need any maintenance, don't favor any fancy sales slogans about  Sci fi materials etc. And brass bushing do not deliver right out of the box(need to be run in), so in a Tacklewarehouse like testbench they would probably not shine. In my heydays we used to polish new brass bushings inside with silver brasso(I could not afford a reel with bearings then) to make them perform out of the box.

Again, the sintered brass bushings of today, are much better than the solid brass ones of the past.

So let me say it this way, if was on my dream fishing trip for two weeks, casting 500 casts a day without any access to reel care and freshwater, I would choose brass bushings.

[Keta]

Plain bearing = bushing

http://machinedesign.com/article/plain-bearings-outperform-rolling-element-bearings-0407

[dobrobill]

I never thought that bearings would be better under any condition. I guess I never let my reels get dirty enough to ever have any problem with bearings.

[Irish Jigger]

Plain bearing = bushing

http://machinedesign.com/article/plain-bearings-outperform-rolling-element-bearings-0407

Interesting article Lee,I liked the "stilleto heels" analogy regarding loaded ball bearings.

[Alto Mare]

are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings?  i can't think of any, can you?

I can, but it depends what kind of fishing reels we are talking about.  If we are talking about the spool bushings in the older Penn's and alike, not much to gain functionality wise. But if you mean medium size baitcasters, brass bushings are way better than bearings in many ways, and is still used in the red Amb reels.

But brass bushings are boring, the just run and run under extreme pressure, don't rust, don't need any maintenance, don't favor any fancy sales slogans about  Sci fi materials etc. And brass bushing do not deliver right out of the box(need to be run in), so in a Tacklewarehouse like testbench they would probably not shine. In my heydays we used to polish new brass bushings inside with silver brasso(I could not afford a reel with bearings then) to make them perform out of the box.

Again, the sintered brass bushings of today, are much better than the solid brass ones of the past.

So let me say it this way, if was on my dream fishing trip for two weeks, casting 500 casts a day without any access to reel care and freshwater, I would choose brass bushings.

X2! Well said 

[CapeFish]

Excellent info thanks a lot. It would be great if we can move away from ball bearings. It will mean with a good pre-service your reel can just get a rinse and keep going. I think the Toyota D4D engines have also done away with a lot of bearings, rather opting for high-tec bushings.

[Jeri]

Hi All,

In the machine design web site article, there were a couple of points that we need to address with this arguement. The first being that they admit that bushings are not the answer for precision location situation, which on a spool bearing for a casting reel in a surf casting situation, is one of the most critical elements. Spool alignment between the bearings/bushings is hype critical, as I suggested in an earlier posting, in some surf casting situations we are looking for spools to spin at speed approaching 20,000rpm.

The second element was surface area, in a bushing the contact surface area is much higher, and hence inducess more fricction, than say a comparable ball bearing.

So, perhaps bushings are an answer to some problems in reels, in certain applications; while in others they are not the answer. Years ago ABU used to pretty much offer two versions of each model, especially the likes of the 7000, one with bushes, the other with bearings - and very quickly all the surf casters opted for the bearing model, and the bushing models were discontinued.


Just my thoughs.


Cheers from sunny Africa,


Jeri

[Jeri]

Hi All,

Taking this discussion a little further, and adding to the 'reading list', perhaps a view of SMB Bearings' tech data might assist with some of the issues folks are having with roller type bearings: see:
www.smbbearings.com/SMBtechdata.htm

A useful resource that explains a lot of what is happening inside a roller type bearing, and how to get the most from your new bearings, and even selecting the right bearing. We have been using some of their EMQ bearings for quite a while now, and have found them to be exceptional quality.

Back to the bushing vs. roller debate, in the first part of the web dialogue for:  bushings out performing roller type bearings, there is a qualification which reads:

"That's not to say that plain bearings are right for every application where rolling-element bearings are currently installed. Extremely precise shaft-location or low-friction requirements, for example, could preclude the use of plain bearings."

So, the author admits in an early paragraph that the benefits of bushings are not going to overcome the requirements where precision shaft and low friction are a requirement.

Isn't this exactly what we are looking for in the spool of a casting reel, the latest models of lever drag reels with one piece frames, bored out of a single billet of aluminium, and all the other advances in precision engineering that we are currently seeing, are all efforts to get perfect alignment of the spool shaft in a strong framework/body.

Once we come away from the spool and its shaft, then perhaps there are arguments that make sense to replace some of the bearings with bushings, especially around the drive train, though there is one factor which would need to be reviewed, which is the compatibility between the materials. Having a too hard bushing working on a soft shaft would lead to premature wear of the shaft, easily remedied, but when it comes to long term maintenance, which of the two elements do you make the softer, the shaft or the bush? For when you do need to replace one, it is liable to be expensive, especially should the repair shop not have access to a lathe or similar equipment.

Originally, when I first got involved with surf casting reels, and how to make them go faster, and potentially cast further; I looked at the issue of ceramic bearings, and soon found that while they offered less friction, there was the issue of 'fit', between the inner race and the shaft of the spool. On standard star drag reels that we see predominantly on this coast, folks are reluctant to take out the bearings of their new reel and replace them with expensive replacements, so such 'tuning' work is usually carried out, once the original bearings have failed or started to wear. However, what has also worn, though to a lesser degree is the shaft on which the bearings sit, so at this point fitting a new ceramic precision bearing becomes an issue, as the full benefits of the bearing cannot be realised – as the matter of 'fit' is compromised.

So, what we have ended up with, is a situation where for a few dollars/rand or whatever currency you favour, that we replace bearings at regular intervals, and being a relatively cheap item and a simple task, we have our solution, but we maintain our position within the reel of shaft alignment and low friction. Reel manufacturers for the European market then started to fit the ceramic bearings as standard, just to overcome this issue, and to cover the losses they were experiencing to the after-sale market.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to what we all particularly need from our reels, but there will not be a simple solution or fix to remedy some of the problems that we face, as that fix might well be wrong for other applications. My solution to the roller bearing corrosion issue is to go down the route of almost paranoidly excessive maintenance, which at the end of the day, is what all top line sports folks do, the top cyclists don't jump on a rusty old machine and win the Tour de France, however, we don't see all the work that goes into developing and maintaining their bikes, what we see is them winning trophys.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers from sunny Africa,


Jeri

[0119]

Good analogy comparing a reel to a Tour de France bike. These days they cost about the same!  But the likes of Sean Kelly had a sag wagon full of mechanics and hoards of spare components trailing not far behind.  I seek fishing to avoid mankind and any assistance I might need from him. As a one time cyclist and bike mechanic I can only pray that Shimano doesnt do to fishing what they did to cycling.  It is no longer a sport or passion of the middle class, a truly decent bike costs at least $5000.  Fishing has already taken a turn away from common sense thanks to profit obsessed manufacturers and stupid uneducated consumers looking only at shiny chrome and color coordinated rods/reels that as Shimano now totes...'can match your boats hull!'  We allow brand makers and 'internet experts' to convince us we need more tech, more maintenance, more complicated reels capable of acting at Star Trek Warp speed, all to catch a animal with a pee sized brain!  Its all a marketing trap and fishing is now really the manufacturer fishing for your money at a more constant rate with planned obsolesence and continuing style change.

[beachbob]

... At the end of the day, it all comes down to what we all particularly need from our reels, but there will not be a simple solution or fix to remedy some of the problems that we face, as that fix might well be wrong for other applications. My solution to the roller bearing corrosion issue is to go down the route of almost paranoidly excessive maintenance, which at the end of the day, is what all top line sports folks do, the top cyclists don't jump on a rusty old machine and win the Tour de France, however, we don't see all the work that goes into developing and maintaining their bikes, what we see is them winning trophys. ...

the reel performance with bearings is well worth the simple reel and bearing maintenance after a fishing session.  it's stupid easy.  that's the bottom line for me.

[Keta]

I was in heavy industrial maintenance for over 30 years and believe in preventative maintenance, my reels get stripped down and serviced too often.  HOWEVER, by the looks of the reels I work on for others (bushings would be a better, especialy the charter boat reels) most people don't EVER open their reels, let alown service them.   For the "average" fisherman bushed reels would be a much better choice....but they aren't "sexy" like ball/roller bearings. I feel it's mostly addvertising/sales departement driven, not needs driven for most applications.

I've never seen a bushed reel locked up without having a bent spool shaft or warped spool, I have seen several reels locked up due to failed bearings. 

There is a time and place for both and both are superior to the other in SOME applications.  One factor you don't often see mentioned is the enertia it takes to get a ball/roller bearing moving, that can limit your casting distance, a bushing has no moving parts.

[Irish Jigger]

I was in heavy industrial maintenance for over 30 years and believe in preventative maintenance, my reels get stripped down and serviced too often.  HOWEVER, by the looks of the reels I work on for others (bushings would be a better, especialy the charter boat reels) most people don't EVER open their reels, let alown service them.   For the "average" fisherman bushed reels would be a much better choice....but they aren't "sexy" like ball/roller bearings. I feel it's mostly addvertising/sales departement driven, not needs driven for most applications.

I've never seen a bushed reel locked up without having a bent spool shaft or warped spool, I have seen several reels locked up due to failed bearings. 

There is a time and place for both and both are superior to the other in SOME applications.  One factor you don't often see mentioned is the enertia it takes to get a ball/roller bearing moving, that can limit your casting distance, a bushing has no moving parts.

X2
Great post Lee,couldn't agree more. 

[Ron Jones]

I actually think everyone is right. For the average angler, and especially the charter boat operation, plain bearings make sense. For the casting crank that runs his/her reels at 9/10ths to maximize the fishing experience and get every last bit out of the reel and who probably enjoys maintaining the reels almost as much as fishing them, spool bearings would have the advantage. Just two different but equally important mindsets about the most fantastic thing God ever allowed man to do.
Ron

[Jeri]

Hi All,


Well said Ron, agree fully.

Cheers from sunny Africa,


Jeri

[Bunnlevel Sharker]

are there any significant advantages for bushings over bearings?  i can't think of any, can you?

I can, but it depends what kind of fishing reels we are talking about.  If we are talking about the spool bushings in the older Penn's and alike, not much to gain functionality wise. But if you mean medium size baitcasters, brass bushings are way better than bearings in many ways, and is still used in the red Amb reels.

But brass bushings are boring, the just run and run under extreme pressure, don't rust, don't need any maintenance, don't favor any fancy sales slogans about  Sci fi materials etc. And brass bushing do not deliver right out of the box(need to be run in), so in a Tacklewarehouse like testbench they would probably not shine. In my heydays we used to polish new brass bushings inside with silver brasso(I could not afford a reel with bearings then) to make them perform out of the box.

Again, the sintered brass bushings of today, are much better than the solid brass ones of the past.

So let me say it this way, if was on my dream fishing trip for two weeks, casting 500 casts a day without any access to reel care and freshwater, I would choose brass bushings.

X2! Well said 

Just like i tried to tell you on P&S beach bob