113h 4:1 Gears from Ebay- I see a problem

[Alto Mare]

Penn anniversary ss gears stick to magnets, never seen  rust on those
penn baja special ss gears stick to magnets, can't tell you if they rust...never used them, but  I wouldn't think so
newell ss gears stick to magnets, seen lots of rust on those
accurate ss gears don't stick to magnets, never seen rust on those

[Makule]

Penn anniversary ss gears stick to magnets, never seen  rust on those
penn baja special ss gears stick to magnets, can't tell you if they rust...never used them, but  I wouldn't think so
newell ss gears stick to magnets, seen lots of rust on those
accurate ss gears don't stick to magnets, never seen rust on those

As Lee points out, the 400 series SSs do rust and it's because of the high carbon content in the alloy.  This also makes the steel hardenable, and capable of being quite a bit harder than other SSs, especially those in the 300 series.  The 440, for example, is often used in making knife blades by even some top end companies.  None of those companies would think of using a 300 series SS for knives (although some of the real cheapie kitchen and utility knives made by others probably are), and while the application is different, the factors for considering them do have similarities (wear resistance, ability to hold an "edge", toughness, resistance to corrosion, etc).

Essentially, all SS have a trait known as "work hardening".  That is, as the surface is worn it becomes hard.  For example:  You try to cut SS with a dull blade and give up after 1/2 hour because you're getting nowhere.  You see the groove, but it's taking you so long to make any progress that you know there's something wrong. This is the result of "work hardening".  What makes this trait a good things in fishing reel gears is that those gears will take longer to wear under normal circumstances (e.g., reeling up bait, cranking in lures, bringing in small fish, etc).

The advantage a 300 series SS has over the 400 is that the 300 has better corrosion resistance.  The 400s, with the higher carbon content, will rust more.  This is not to say that it will rust like non-SS.

The advantage the 400 series SS has over the 300 is that it can be harder and tougher.  Consequently, there is less chance that the gears will get stripped or too severely worn on (a) very large fish being fought with very tight drag.  Even though all SS will work harden, this only happens to the surface of the metal, and if the pressure is too great, the whole tooth will fatigue/fail at whatever the rated strength is.  You will see this either as the tooth breaking (usually not with SS but with other hardened steels), or severely smashed up against the next tooth.  If you see a tooth really messed up against the next, and if there was no manufacturing defect involved, that would suggest that the material the gear was made with was inappropriate for the anticipated load.

The final point, on the overly long post, is the answer to why aren't all fishing reel gears made with SS and, specifically, 400 series SS.  It's the same answer as why they are not all made with brass/bronze, aluminum alloy, or plastic:  First, SS costs more, regardless of whether it's 300 of 400.  Second, machining SS is more difficult that bronze/brass.  Third, machining hardened SS (the 400 series kind) is even more difficult (the smaller the part, the more difficult).  Yes, the 400 SS can be had in the annealed (softened) state and be easy to machine.  However, that would require another step of then hardening and tempering the steel to the proper hardness after machining, involving more time and cost.

Contrary to what we might hope or want to believe, reel manufacturers do not make reels for a select few (unless maybe you're like Everol).  They design and make reels for the majority of user who will encounter the majority of fish.  Those on this Forum likely are not part of that "majority" but, rather, a smaller group of people who want and expect much more performance from their reels than what comes out of the box.  That being the case, the components also cannot be made from the same materials as what is suitable "for the majority".  The components must be made of better materials and must be made better.  Guess what, you get what you pay for.  If you see "imperfections" on the gears (as has been pointed out), and if they fall short in terms of performance (at least the noise, as has also been pointed out), you did get what you paid for.

Maybe paying $100 for a good set is sounding more reasonable?

[Alto Mare]

I would like somebody to work these gears and then report back
i'd like to think that this set is from a bad run, and that good gears can be had for $60
I dont want to buy some for myself and have them shred while I am in Baja

Neither does anyone else

[wolvie]

I happen to have 2 sets of the ebay 4:1 gears and was installing them as part of rebuilding 2 113h's today so this topic is quite timely.  I found that they are smooth when I use the original yoke, but bind when I use the new ss yoke.  Maybe some tolerance shifted slightly on the ss yokes?  Or the original pinions had a slightly wider slot? 
(I have some lapping compound and may try that as a solution, despite the recent kerfuffle regarding abrasive, premature wear, etc.  I do see some roughness in the way the slot is cut in the pinion, btw.)

Just my 2 cents, but I will have my reels apart for a while if someone wants me to check anything.  (I have to replace a couple of sticky bearings.)

[Alto Mare]

Not necessarily the gears, I had that issue with the ss yoke on 4/0's and 6/0's a few times. If you look closely you will notice that one side of the ss yoke has a soft edges while the other side  sharp.
Flip that yoke and see what happens. I usually buff them on my buffing wheel.

[wolvie]

Ok  some images.  I will have to see if I can dig up my feeler gauges . . .

Excuse the quality - depth of field is lousy at this magnification and photography is not my forte.
There does seem to be some plating chipping off.  But one edge is much rougher than the other.

[Bryan Young]

Wow, that's very good and clear photos.  Thanks for the heads up.

I wondering if they are actually using Stainless Steel if they are plating the gears...

[wolvie]

I filed down the burrs and other gunk (probably plating) with a nail file and now it fits fine and turns freely.  It is a tighter tolerance than my other ss sets, so we'll see how it works out.  The plating does worry me, as I do not see the point in plating it if it is ss.  I won't be able to fish with it for a couple of weeks, so someone else may have quicker results.  But I will try to beat on it and then take it apart again to see how it held up.

Still did not find my feeler gauges - maybe tomorrow.

I also sent some feedback to the ebay seller, to see how he responds.

[Alto Mare]

You have a nice camera Wolvie . Mine would probably do the same, but I just don't know how to set it . Well it isn't really mine, it's my wifes. Wait when she gets it back, thanks to you guys it now loaded with grease . I'll probably tell her that is was a little stiff .
This is what I came up with.
I just removed the gears from the reel, they were working nicely, no issues what so ever. here is what I found by removing the grease
from the pinion with a toothpick


Lots of flakes,. The pinion has definitely been plated, don't ask me why, it just don't know.
The main gear is stainless steel and the pinion appears to be the same, but not sure. I put a magnet to both and they did not stick.
I also did a little test on how hard the material is.... thanks for the tip Tom.
These ebay gears feel very similar to the Accurate, very close in every way, even in density. The only difference is with the plating.
These gears were tested by me , but not on the water, the teeth look fine on both.
I believe the roughness that you've showed us is from the plating, I used a tighter yoke and forced the pinion to go around by hand and more flakes came out.
Here are a couple of more shots of the gears


Sal
Sorry, I was going to post morepictures, but photobucket changed things around and I'm having a tough time downloading them.

[Black Pearl]

My guy told me that this pinion gear is SS 303 or 304. There is some kind of coating on it.

He is scratching his head about that.

[Alto Mare]

Joel, didn't do no REAL-WORLD test, but as you can see above the plating did really come off. there isn't much left on the pinion, except for the bottom part.
Now,I actually don't believe that the pinion was plated, maybe a metal reaction from their process. the flakes break up easely by pressing on them with a blade. Here is another shot of the flakes without the grease

Either way, it shouldn't have happened. Did my reel stop working or did I notice any difference in functionality? No, I did not.
As I mentioned above, I did put the gears to a test, the only thing left now is to give them a real tast on the water. Maybe one of you California boys can help out with this. Winter is back, here in the NE and my fishing is very limited at the moment, I have kids in college.
Sal

[Keta]

The machine work looks rough and I do not like the plating flaking off, it will cause premature gear wear.

[broadway]

        Like I've said in past posts, these gears are WAY inferior to the Accurate Gears (in so many ways.) Please don't compare them... you're putting real engineers using quality materials in the same category as hack machinists using sub standard materials (glad to see it's finally surfacing), whos just churning them out to take your money.  Accurate made a quality product and I know as I have had 9 gear manufacturers tell me so.  I wouldn't waste my time and money sending that ebay gear to anyone.  I have to say that I'm a little surprised more of you guys don't see the differences, as most are seen by the naked eye.  I will not be trusting that pinion on any fishing trip as it needs no testing (it will fail at some point soon)... anyone wanna buy my unused set from me now? Seriously it's here if there are any takers... you can have it for $50 and I'll ship to the lower 48 for free. 
All the best,
Dom

[Black Pearl]

        Like I've said in past posts, these gears are WAY inferior to the Accurate Gears (in so many ways.) Please don't compare them... you're putting real engineers using quality materials in the same category as hack machinists using sub standard materials (glad to see it's finally surfacing), whos just churning them out to take your money.  Accurate made a quality product and I know as I have had 9 gear manufacturers tell me so.  I wouldn't waste my time and money sending that ebay gear to anyone.  I have to say that I'm a little surprised more of you guys don't see the differences, as most are seen by the naked eye.  I will not be trusting that pinion on any fishing trip as it needs no testing (it will fail at some point soon)... anyone wanna buy my unused set from me now? Seriously it's here if there are any takers... you can have it for $50 and I'll ship to the lower 48 for free. 
All the best,
Dom

Hey Dom,

I guess I should charge my new 316 gear set higher....

Alan

[Irish Jigger]

Has anyone who purchased these gears contacted the seller? Would be interesting to get his side of the story. "Pay peanuts get a monkey"