Increasing the drag in an Avet

[AJFISH13]

Hello. My name is Arthur and I am trying to use my Avet SX for an project in my engineering class. I want to increase the maximum drag to 20lbs without destroying the right side plate bearings. And yes, I have some prior experience with what happens when you use more than 10lbs of drag with an Avet(Ive blown out 2 bearing in the past year and a half). Any ideas or suggestions or am I just wasting my time? I also wanted to try and put a digital backlash system into my Avet based on the Calais DC system althought the Calais is a baitcaster and the Avet is a lever drag. Again, any ideas or suggestions or am I just wasting my time?

[Keta]

Try to find an angular contact bearing that will work for the pinion bearing (#23 on a SX 5.3, #24 on a SX 6/4) preferably a flanged one so it doesn't have a chance to be installed backward.  You might also need an angular contact bearings for the left side spool bearing, #7 and #14. The load is on the inter race on the spool bearings so you probably can get by with just the pinion. 

If you find a bearing post where you got them.

[Robert Janssen]

Actually Keta, you've been asking about small flanged AC bearings for quite some time. I noticed some earlier today, but don't know the dimensions for the Avet reels. Dimensions i've seen posted in various forums have been unreliable.  (bad math, bad measuring technique?? etc)

Do you happen to know the proper dimensions?

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[Keta]

I have several MX's to do soon and have new pinion bearings comming, I'll get the #s and get back to you as soon as I get them.

[Robert Janssen]

Ah, thanks Keta, but never mind.

I've been seeing those why-does-my-reel-get-stiff posts for so long i no longer care. Just waiting for someone to do something about it, with either AC  or axial bearings.

Have a look at National Bearing in general, and their Medical / Dental bearings*
Also noticed that VXB has many inexpensive AC bearings, among others in 6 x 17 mm and 8 x 22 mm. As befitting such a retailer, there isn't much info on tech specs like contact angle.

Go on over there and click yourself happy.


EDIT: Found the post regarding small AC bearings i said someone posted recently:

found this angular bearing today....
http://www.origin.co.jp/product/up_file/ja/200704091.pdf

Dunno if they fit anything here, but anyway...




*semi-valid excuse for jacking up the price 3000% ?  Don't know...

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[alantani]

hey, arthur.  can you tell me the diamater of the spool shaft?  i've got an idea...... 

[Robert Janssen]

Near as i can tell Alan, the shaft on the SX, MX and JX is 3/16" or 0.1875". (Which is about 4.76 mm.)

(i called other bearing info "unreliable" in the previous post. Not quite right; i should have said "unclear". They might give the bearing size, but not which reel, or where it fits, or erroneous metric size etc) but most share the same 0.1875" shaft size, so...

So, near as i can tell, there are bearings available that are close, but it depends on how much you can do yourself-- boring a sideplate to a new diameter for instance or changing a pinion a little bit is not such a big deal for some people, but it is hard to know what can be done without clearer info.

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[alantani]

ok, so doc, we need a right side thrust bearing with the smallest possible dimensions. 

i found a 4x9x4 stainless steel thrust bearing from vbx.  http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/Kit12594

and there is a 5x10x4 at http://www.bocabearings.com/bearing-inventory/thrust-bearings/3884/5x10x4-sst510g

bryan and i measured the avet side plates one time, and it looked like we did not have room for a 4mm thick thrust bearing.  we would have to mill out the right side plate underneath the right main side plate bearing to dig a hole big enough for the thrust bearing.  it did not look like there was 4mm of room.  it would basically require a redesign of the right side plate. 

here's how we worked it out.  the right side thrust bearing needs to support the inside race of the right main side plate bearing and can have as small an inside diameter as the spool shaft.  that would be less than the inside diameter of the right main side plate bearing, because the pinion gear rides inside the right main side plate bearing, and the spool shaft rides inside the pinion gear.  the right thrust bearing would ideally not come in contact with the shields or the outside race, meaning that the right main side plate bearing would be "free floating" in an axial direction.  so we need a small enough thrust bearing and enough room in the side plate to accomodate that bearing.  does this make sense?

[Keta]

I have a new SX/MX/JX pinion bearing now, it's .196" wide and the OD is .625" measured with my good micrometer.

[Robert Janssen]

...does this make sense?

LOL, yeah... had to read it a few times to run it through my momentarily muddled mind, but eventually i got it i think: Right. Bearings. Go round. Gotcha.

Seriously though, um yeah...okay. So stuff just doesn't fit / ain't enough material to fit two bearings in the right sideplate, is that right? Well... that might be difficult to change. Maybe not impossible though. Exactly how much material was there in the sideplate?

Funny, I actually briefly considered buying an SX to see what all the fuss was about. That might be easier.

This reminds me, there was a fellow on Allcoast maybe ten-eleven years ago who wrote a post about something along these lines. I can't recall it verbatim, but he bored some stuff, changed some bearings, to AC i think... I don't think i have access to that post right now, but I will try to look it up in near future; see how it turned out.

Questions & thoughts...

What is the inner diameter of the pinion? Is it as per the shaft, or is it a bit bigger?

What is the fit between shaft and right side plate hole? Tight, or sloppy?

I have a new SX/MX/JX pinion bearing now, it's .196" wide and the OD is .625" measured with my good micrometer.

Ah, look at that... Marvelous. And the ID is .250" right?
And, what about the left spool bearing size? ID is .1875, and the rest is..? 
Something needs to be improved here as well. Pressure is distributed equally among these two; focusing entirely on the pinion bearing will not give satisfactory results.

I ask this because there may not be need for a radial bearing in the right sideplate. ABU used only a thrust bearing, relying on other componentry to maintain centricity. Why mess with something unneccesary?

Or for that matter, try AC cheap bearings from an online retailer; see where it leads. It'd probably require less modification. Sometimes done is better than perfect. If nothing else, it'll be a learning step in the right direction.



Doc.

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[Keta]

The pinion bearing I have has a .248" ID and is a tight slip fit.

The left side spool bearing takes a side load, but it's passed to the right side bearing inter race.  If we "cure" the pinion bearing problem I'm thinking the next failure will be the right side spool bearing.

I'll try to measure the spool bearings when I take the reels apart, hopefuly today but I'm more concerned about getting some drawings done today to the water cutter....and "she that must be obeyed" has a list of must do jobs I do not want to do but they need to be done before lambing starts. 

[Robert Janssen]

...The left side spool bearing takes a side load, but it's passed to the right side bearing inter race.

Via the sleeve you mean. Um, no. Not unless the right spool bearing is fixed in place mechanically. Or pressed in very, very tightly. Otherwise the left spool bearing presses on the sleeve, which presses on the right spool bearing, which presses on the drag seperating coil spring, which might as well be air for all the good that does.

... but I'm more concerned about getting some drawings done today to the water cutter

oh yeah, right... been meaning to get back to you on that thing... Oh well, no time now anyways. He'll still be alive tomorrow anyway i bet...

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[Keta]

Spool shaft is pulled to the right by lever cam transfering side load through left side spool bearings balls to outer race.  The side load is then transfered through the sleve to the inter race of right side spool bearing that "floats" but is held by a spring on the inter race....i'll have to think about the loading.

[Bryan Young]

The next trouble spot will be the left spool bearing (for right handed models) because as the spool is pulled to the right, the inner race of the left spool bearing is being pulled in.  It will only move as much as the outer race will allow it to move, then it's pure pressure on the left spool bearing, inner versus outer race and what gets' crunched in-between??? the left spool balls. 

The right spool bearing will only be pushed as far as the gear sleeve will allow it to move, and there's still space for the bearing to move because the only thing holding the inner race from moving is the spring between the spool bearing and the pressure plate bearing.  Therefore, only axial load is applied to the right spool bearing, which is what it is designed for.

The pressure on the pressure plate bearing is essentially the k-force from the spring...and the spring is light so I don't expect any misalignment, and therefore, damage of the pressure plate bearing.

[alantani]

a heavy return spring for the drag pressure plate would take care of alot of the side load on the left spool bearings.  it is really the right main side plate bearing that needs support.