Angular contact bearing upgrade for Preywinder/Omoto (Avet clone) leverdrag reel

[Vabein]

Hi everyone,

first time poster, but have been lurking around on this forum a bit for the last year or so, and I'm very impressed by the amount of knowledge gathered here. I originally came here after stumbling upon Alan's handle/drag upgrade for my TLD20, which got me started maintaining my own reels.

Lately I've been looking at some of the threads regarding ball bearing/handle binding problems on smaller leverdrag reels, which seems to be a common issue. The idea of replacing the left spool bearing/right side pinion bearing with angular contact bearings has been discussed, but finding affordable bearings in the correct dimensions has proven difficult, at least for the most popular smaller leverdrags (Avets etc). I haven't seen anyone actually getting as far as testing this for smaller reels, so I for one am not sure what sort of performance boost, if any, is to be expected.

Anyway, I recently got a good deal on an Avet "clone" made by Omoto. In this thread, Alan dissects an Omoto VS10. The reel I bought is essentially identical, except mine is a size 12 lowspeed, and it's being sold under a different name here in Norway (Preywinder PLD 12 LS).

Here's the reel:



And the parts diagram:



Upon receiving the reel, I immediately cracked it open. Yeah, never would have done that before finding this site. Anyway, the left spool bearing and the right sideplate pinion bearing are both the same size, which is 7x19x6 mm. As it turns out, angular contact bearings in this dimension seem to be readily available, at least I found these two without much effort:


707C from VXB

707 CD/P4A from SKF

So, my plan is to buy two bearings, then measure how much drag on "strike" is possible before feeling any noticable binding when cranking the handle with both the factory bearings and the replacement angular contact bearings. Findings will be reported in this thread if there is an interest.

My question is: are any of the bearings above suitable for this mod? I'm pretty new to all of this, and do not have a good understanding of the various bearing specifications and standards. The VXB bearing is available from both Amazon and eBay, not sure where to buy the SFK one. Does anyone have other recommendations for a suitable and affordable bearing in this size? Also, any other advice / ideas / comments would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

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Vabein

[alantani]

i would do a full service on this reel, spool it up and then see if you get the drag range you need.  if it falls short, then consider stiffening up the belleville stack to see if you can increase the drag range.  if you start to get some side load, THEN consider an upgrade to the right main side plate bearing. you may find that the reel performs adequately just as it is. 

[Tiddlerbasher]

I have performed this mod (angular contact bearings) on an Okuma Andros LD. The binding issues were reduced to minimal. Further tests indicated a drag improvement of approx. 10lbs for comparable binding (ie approx. max of 34lb!). Running at stock drag (24lb max) hardly any binding. The only downside to this mod, on the Andros, was the cost of the bearings Most angular contact bearings are not stainless - TSI321 and marine grease are your friends - service regularly. Just do it! It's how we learn (to spend money )!

[Robert Janssen]

Yes, it is good that this subject came up... (again) I've been intending to update the other Avet threads, but this came first.

I have decided to make a serious attempt at sourcing and supplying for sale, the elusive and desireable Angular Contact pinion bearing for Avet reels. I have a half a dozen suppliers and manufacturers to go through, and bought an Avet reel for testing.
Stay tuned.


Good luck with your Omoto project. I'll let you know if i think of a good supplier for your SKF bearing.

.

[Vabein]

Alan: Yeah, did the full service, spooled up the reel and did some tests. Was using a ratty old spring scale, and pulled directly from the reel, fully spooled. As far as I can tell, the handle starts to bind slightly with the drag set at 5 lbs at strike. Meaning that at 5 lbs, it doesn't "fall" under its own weight. Binding kept increasing as I tried progressively higher settings, and was quite noticeable at maximum, which I measured to 13 lbs at strike before losing freespool. At this point the preset knob was very close to fully tightened. I don't really need a lot more drag for this reel, but I would like a smoother handle at the higher settings, and to be able to fish it at 10+ lbs of drag at strike without feeling I'm damaging it. I'll try modifying the belleville stack as you suggested and see where that gets me.

Tiddlebasher: Sounds very promising :-) looked up another thread with more details from your Andros project, I know what you mean about learning to spend money, ouch! The VXB bearings I linked to are a lot more affordable at <$13, hope it's due to them being a more commonly used dimension and not because they suck.

Robert: I think you'll have no problems getting rid of that product if you find a good fit. Good luck, and thanks for keeping an eye open for the 707-sized bearing as well.

Thanks for commenting!

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Vabein

[alantani]

5 pounds is way too low......   

[Vabein]

Quick update: after modifying the belleville stack from
)()()
to
(()()
I'm more than happy with the drag range - was able to get 18 pounds at strike before loosing freespool, which happened almost exactly as the preset knob bottomed out. This of course didn't resolve the handle binding issue, but made me optimistic that I could end up with a nice strong and smooth drag provided that the angular bearings work out as I hope.

Sooo i went ahead and ordered a pair of the VXB bearings from eBay. For science!

Will update as soon as they arrive and I'm able to test them.

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Vabein

[Vabein]

Bearings arrived in the mail today, so I thought I'd update this thread.

Before installing them, I once more measured the drag setting at which the handle no longer would move/fall under its own weight. With the original bearings, I measured this to 6 pounds at strike.

Here are the replacement bearings, VXB 707C:



The outer ring is wider on the side with the writing/model number on it. From what I've read, any thrust on the inner race should then come from the opposite side. This is an image I found that seems to back this up:



So I figure the side with the model number on it should go down when inserting it into the right side plate. Here's how I installed it (bottom one):



I installed the second replacement bearing (left spool) in the same orientation.

After reassembling the reel, I once more adjusted the preset button until the handle would no longer move/fall under its own weight.

6 pounds again. 

Before doing any further test on higher drag settings, I just wanted to make sure I've installed these the in the correct orientation.

Anyone?

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Vabein

[Robert Janssen]

i dont know which side the numbers are on, but you should be able to feel the difference. One way is loose & sloppy; the other is taut and stable. Taut & stable side goes up, when going into the sideplate.

Interestingly, as a sidenote, I've been busy with the Avet bearings. Going to try a thing tomorrow. Stand by.

.

[LTM]

Valbein and Robert,

Im watching like a hawk. It figures that you guys would start this as soon as I have over $100 of bearings in the mail for my "AVETS"  . At least with your success, I can return some.

Keep it up guys,

Leo

[Vabein]

Just checked with VXB on their homepage livechat, seems the load should go on the side with the wider outer race.

So, apparently I got it backwards,  will reconfigure tomorrow and run another test. Hope I didn't ruin the bearings :-/

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Vabein

[Vabein]

Update: reinstalled the bearings with other side up, reassembled and ran my test again.

3 pounds this time.

Overall, a pretty underwhelming experience so far. But at least I'm now pretty sure my first installation was correct, and that the VXB rep in fact mixed it up. To me it makes sense that the side with the wider outer race would be face down in the bearing cup, so that when the pinion gear pushes the inner race, which pushes the ball, which pushes the outer race on the opposite side, the wider outer race will give additional support for the axial load.

I'll flip the bearings once more and try some higher drag settings to see how the VXB bearings compare to the originals then.

By the way, could something else be happening? Like the inner race coming in contact with the bottom of the bearing cup?

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Vabein

[LTM]

Valbein and Robert,

In regards to the orientation of the axial bearing. Im no mechanical engineer however, I would think that the flat/non-hooded side of the bearing goes up aginst the bearing cup away from the opposing force, with the hooded/protruding portion of the outer race facing the lateral opposing force. This orientation lends the inner and outer race against the bearing cup as a solid unit from which to start generating opposing force against the outer race, while minizing force to the inner bearing race and affecting its rotational/radial motion.

I COULD BE COMPLETELY WRONG   ,

Leo

[Robert Janssen]

So I figure the side with the model number on it should go down when inserting it into the right side plate.

Yes, looking at your pictures, that seems to make sense.

 

...until the handle would no longer move/fall under its own weight...

Well idunno about that. I agree with the need to find some kind of quantifiable reference, but a handle falling under its own weight? It must be a very good handle indeed. Not all reels can do that on even a very good day with no drag at all.

So really, install the bearings as you think best and try some real drag. See what happens.

By the way, could something else be happening? Like the inner race coming in contact with the bottom of the bearing cup?

No. Installed correctly, the bearings measurements are as per their specifications. BUT installed backwards, yes- that can be so.


Leo, i honestly didn't understand that, but it sounded very well thought out. Gotta have some coffee and read that a few times.

.

[LTM]

Robert,

Almost laughed out my chair   . Yeah, what he said (live chat person): the load should face the side with the wider outer race. By exerting force on the outer race before harming the inner race provides axil/lateral load by the bearing.  See, simple as mud.... or is it clear as mud.

Hey Robert, I know you tend to hang out in another Nebuli some where and Im glad you like to fish   . I wonder if you'd like tocheck out the discussion on powder coating. Darn it, I forgot where it was at........its definitely above this area.  Check it out Robert and leave some feed back.

Thanx,

Leo

Edit: Found it in General procedures, here's the link  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=9622.0