506HS project questions

Started by JasonGotaProblem, September 14, 2022, 02:23:11 PM

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jurelometer

#30
Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 21, 2022, 02:56:00 AMI have to ask , how does a dog go under the ratchet .

The post on the bridge tilts under load.  The ratchet is built into the gear sleeve, so it tilts with the sleeve, that tilts with the post.  See this post, but there are others as well:

https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=420717

The dog post does not tilt because it is separately attached to the bridge plate.  With the angled point of contact,  the ratchet can crawl over the dog.  But the dog can just get chewed on the bridge side of the tooth and fail too.  It probably depends on which way the bridge post is tilting.

QuoteWhy can`t you make 2 dogs work simultaneously.

You can.  That is one of the two ways to do it.  Alternating seems to be more popular as it reduces handle backplay.  Simultaneous dogs will never engage exactly simultaneously, and the metal parts are not very elastic, so the first dog has to be starting to fail before the second dog kicks in.  They don't recommend adding dogs to increased load capacity in the  mechanical design handbooks that I have seen.  It could help if the first dog fails a little, and the second dog starts load sharing.  But the placement of the second dog may increase the risk of catastrophic dog failure. 
QuoteDo  Dogs working 180 apart helps stabilize the bridge post  ? 


I have heard this claim, but am skeptical.  It is based on the assumption that the dog is levering the ratchet, so a dog on the other side will counter that leverage.  But I believe that the helical gears are actually the main cause of the leverage. We see this in gears shredding when winding when the dog is not a factor.  A portion of the rotary load gets translated into axial load and ramps the two gears apart. This is a known issue with helical gears.

Nobody knows 100% for sure.

QuoteAre we just assembling parts or is there some reel smithing involved ?

Nobody gets paid, or at least paid much to do this, so most folk  try stuff based on intuition.  That usually works, but not always.  Testing some types  of fixes has to be destructive, and repeated if it is reliable, and few of us are willing to trash half a dozen reels to find out for sure.  Some fixes like alternating dogs can be validated to work well enough to be worth it.  And some fixes are  addressing a known common failure, so it is easy enough to validate a worthwhile improvement.

A fix like simultaneous double dogs is tricky, because you are  addressing a downstream effect and not the root cause  of failure (bridge post tilting -which also shreds gears BTW).  So nobody knows for sure what will happen without some destructive testing - hence the debate.

BTW, I am  not trained in this stuff.  I'm just  a hobby inventor/designer that likes to research.   So I could  be getting some of it wrong myself.

-J

mhc

Quote from: jurelometer on September 21, 2022, 05:08:27 AM
Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 21, 2022, 02:56:00 AMI have to ask , how does a dog go under the ratchet .

The post on the bridge tilts under load.  The ratchet is built into the gear sleeve, so it tilts with the sleeve, that tilts with the post.  See this post, but there are others as well:

https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=420717

The dog post does not tilt because it is separately attached to the bridge plate.  With the angled point of contact,  the ratchet can crawl over the dog.  But the dog can just get chewed on the bridge side of the tooth and fail too.  It probably depends on which way the bridge post is tilting.

QuoteWhy can`t you make 2 dogs work simultaneously.

You can.  That is one of the two ways to do it.  Alternating seems to be more popular as it reduces handle backplay.  Simultaneous dogs will never engage exactly simultaneously, and the metal parts are not very elastic, so the first dog has to be starting to fail before the second dog kicks in.  They don't recommend adding dogs to increased load capacity in the  mechanical design handbooks that I have seen.  It could help if the first dog fails a little, and the second dog starts load sharing.  But the placement of the second dog may increase the risk of catastrophic dog failure. 
QuoteDo  Dogs working 180 apart helps stabilize the bridge post  ? 


I have heard this claim, but am skeptical.  It is based on the assumption that the dog is levering the ratchet, so a dog on the other side will counter that leverage.  But I believe that the helical gears are actually the main cause of the leverage. We see this in gears shredding when winding when the dog is not a factor.  A portion of the rotary load gets translated into axial load and ramps the two gears apart. This is a known issue with helical gears.

Nobody knows 100% for sure.

QuoteAre we just assembling parts or is there some reel smithing involved ?

Nobody gets paid, or at least paid much to do this, so most folk  try stuff based on intuition.  That usually works, but not always.  Testing some types  of fixes has to be destructive, and repeated if it is reliable, and few of us are willing to trash half a dozen reels to find out for sure.  Some fixes like alternating dogs can be validated to work well enough to be worth it.  And some fixes are  addressing a known common failure, so it is easy enough to validate a worthwhile improvement.

A fix like simultaneous double dogs is tricky, because you are  addressing a downstream effect and not the root cause  of failure (bridge post tilting -which also shreds gears BTW).  So nobody knows for sure what will happen without some destructive testing - hence the debate.

BTW, I am  not trained in this stuff.  I'm just  a hobby inventor/designer that likes to research.  So I could  be getting some of it wrong myself.

-J

Jason, don't let Dave's nay-saying  ;D  put you off experimenting with double dogging your bridge - it can be a fun project and satisfying when it works plus the worst that can happen is it doesn't work. I'm in the alternating dogs to reduce backplay team - more dogs and more ratchet teeth are always a worthwhile improvement :). Jigmasters and other small reels won't benefit much from attempting simultaneous dogs for strength -single dogs are strong enough to stand up to the higher drag settings possible with custom drag kits/configurations available for jigmasters. Even DIY second dogs and dog posts withstood bench testing to around 30lb drag back in 2015 calculated using jurelometer's spreadsheets. https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.30

Jurelometer - It's good see you haven't waived from your stance on simultaneous dogs being unachievable and I agree the individual components are effectively non elastic, but still think there would be enough flex in the 'system'. Have you got any ideas how 'we' could measure non-destructive strain or flex on the dog ratchet arrangement? I reckon there would be a few thou at least. 

Mike
It can't be too difficult - a lot of people do it.

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: oldmanjoe on September 21, 2022, 02:56:00 AMI have to ask , how does a dog go under the ratchet
that's what I was wondering. Though logically it must be possible or why would we talk about it.
QuoteAre we just assembling parts or is there some reel smithing involved ?
I suppose that depends on your definition. I'd like to picture myself as something of a reel Smith, but I'd also like to picture myself as wealthy and attractive. Reality doesnt always match.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Keta

One can hand fit double dogs so they engage at the same time. 

I am in the alternate engagement  and creating a smoother drag at or slightly above factory spec. camp.  Drag on some reels can be safely increased, usually narrow reels,  but post frames can twist under higher than designed loads.  A half or solid frame will help.

You can invest more into building a custom reel than the cost of a modern reel and not get close to modern reel specs but the "cool factor" is not there.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Shellbelly

Quote from: mhc on September 21, 2022, 10:14:07 AMbecause you are  addressing a downstream effect and not the root cause  of failure (bridge post tilting -

Forgive my apprentice approach, but what causes this?  Is it a design flaw or a platform that was never designed to meet current expectations?  I keep digging deeper into the abyss of discussions and this root cause remains constant.  My observation is that a highly competent cottage industry family has evolved all around this root cause, but not ON it...always trying to address recurring symptoms of one known problem.

What, exactly, would theoretically solve the problem identified as the root cause and allow the preferred platform to operate as desired??

All the effort and documentation archived about this is a textbook example of product development that has yet to directly attack the root cause.

Please don't misinterpret my observation as biased.  Once the problem is solved, it will be literally surrounded by products that will shore up any initial weakness. 
"Little boy,  you can get glad in the same pants you just got mad in."  (My Momma)
"You shot it boy, you're gonna clean it and eat it".  (My Dad)

jurelometer

Quote from: mhc on September 21, 2022, 10:14:07 AMJason, don't let Dave's nay-saying  ;D  put you off experimenting with double dogging your bridge - it can be a fun project and satisfying when it works plus the worst that can happen is it doesn't work. I'm in the alternating dogs to reduce backplay team - more dogs and more ratchet teeth are always a worthwhile improvement :). Jigmasters and other small reels won't benefit much from attempting simultaneous dogs for strength -single dogs are strong enough to stand up to the higher drag settings possible with custom drag kits/configurations available for jigmasters. Even DIY second dogs and dog posts withstood bench testing to around 30lb drag back in 2015 calculated using jurelometer's spreadsheets. https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=14241.30

Jurelometer - It's good see you haven't waived from your stance on simultaneous dogs being unachievable and I agree the individual components are effectively non elastic, but still think there would be enough flex in the 'system'. Have you got any ideas how 'we' could measure non-destructive strain or flex on the dog ratchet arrangement? I reckon there would be a few thou at least. 

Mike


Actually agree with (almost :) ) everything Mike said. And Mike definitely gets the reelsmith title, as he is one of the few that actually does some destructive testing, including multiple dogs in the thread that he linked,  That thread is worth reading for folks interested on double (or triple, or quadruple) dogging. My thinking has not evolved much since then  other than agreeing with Mike's statement above that even if a second simultaneous dog actually contributed to increasing load capacity, it doesn't buy much because of the other points of failure that are ahead of it in line.

So here is the math on the benefit of alternate double dogging a jigmaster:  Assume about a 1.9 inch spool diameter after the cast, and a 3.9:1 gear ratio (don't remember the exact numbers) with the standard gear set.  That gives of something in the neighborhood of 24 inches of retrieve per revolution.

Now divide that by eight teeth on a stock gear sleeve ratchet, and that gives you three inches maximum ( or 1.5 inches on average) line that goes back out before the dog engages. Doubling the dogs cuts that in half.

The other  way to look at it is how much the handle arm backspins. 360 degrees /8 gives you 45 degrees max, or 22.5 degrees on average with a single dog.  I think this is what bothers folk more than the amount of line moved, which is what matters most to the fish.

If you think it is worth it to cut this in half, than double dogging is worth it from a functional perspective, as long as the second dog is not so much of a hack that it introduces a failure risk greater than what is already there.

Or if you just want to try it for the challenge - who am I to argue? :)

-J

JasonGotaProblem

I think the root cause is we want to expose these reels to forces far greater than they were designed for, and seem to limit ourselves to mods that don't massively change the mechanisms we are upgrading lest we stop getting to feel like we're fishing vintage tackle.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

jurelometer

#37
Quote from: Shellbelly on September 21, 2022, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: mhc on September 21, 2022, 10:14:07 AMbecause you are  addressing a downstream effect and not the root cause  of failure (bridge post tilting -

Forgive my apprentice approach, but what causes this?  Is it a design flaw or a platform that was never designed to meet current expectations?  I keep digging deeper into the abyss of discussions and this root cause remains constant.  My observation is that a highly competent cottage industry family has evolved all around this root cause, but not ON it...always trying to address recurring symptoms of one known problem.

What, exactly, would theoretically solve the problem identified as the root cause and allow the preferred platform to operate as desired??

All the effort and documentation archived about this is a textbook example of product development that has yet to directly attack the root cause.

Please don't misinterpret my observation as biased.  Once the problem is solved, it will be literally surrounded by products that will shore up any initial weakness.

The bridge post design was the cheapest way to build a reel that worked within its required  limits before the days of  braid.  Some of the newer expensive star drag reels that have some of the same flaws  don't get a pass.  Mechanical Design  101 to support shafts under load on both ends unless there is a good reason not to.


There are lots of threads on addressing  the bridge post,  but a summary here toward the end of post #27:https://alantani.com/index.php?msg=420737

This is the limit that we eventually push up against, but other fixes like the stainless gear sleeve and solid frames on the wider models allow us to reach that limit.  Other fixes like alternating dogs, or smoother drag stacks also provide value. 


Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on September 21, 2022, 05:38:48 PMI think the root cause is we want to expose these reels to forces far greater than they were designed for, and seem to limit ourselves to mods that don't massively change the mechanisms we are upgrading lest we stop getting to feel like we're fishing vintage tackle.

Exactly.


I think that if you attempt to replace the  bridge post ,  there will  not be enough of the original parts/design left to call it a Jigmaster.  Sort of like a NASCAR machine with the shell resembling a street vehicle.

If the exercise is to end up with 30 lb drag/ 12 lb winding load star drag, then the answer is to buy a different reel.

The hotrodded reels are plenty capable, and some can be a joy to cast.  Just have to accept that there is a limit.

-J

Shellbelly




Quote from: jurelometer on September 21, 2022, 05:48:25 PM
QuoteI think the root cause is we want to expose these reels to forces far greater than they were designed for, and seem to limit ourselves to mods that don't massively change the mechanisms we are upgrading lest we stop getting to feel like we're fishing vintage tackle.

Exactly.


I think that if you attempt to replace the  bridge post ,  there will  not be enough of the original parts/design left to call it a Jigmaster.  Sort of like a NASCAR machine with the shell resembling a street vehicle.

If the exercise is to end up with 30 lb drag/ 12 lb winding load star drag, then the answer is to buy a different reel.

The hotrodded reels are plenty capable, and some can be a joy to cast.  Just have to accept that there is a limit.

I suspected this was the case because there is this no-win scenario and elephant in the room feel to it.  From a purist standpoint, I understand the delicate balance.  Staying objective, though, we have to accept the fact that we don't want to destroy the model, but we will..and do destroy the reel by pushing it in the field.

I'm OK with that. 

My OCD brain still wants to fix the problem.
"Little boy,  you can get glad in the same pants you just got mad in."  (My Momma)
"You shot it boy, you're gonna clean it and eat it".  (My Dad)

JasonGotaProblem

Ok crazy idea #19747
I noticed the bearing cup on the tail plate is basically a cast control knob that can only be operated via flathead screwdriver. Is there any existing way to mod that to where I can operate it with my fingers? I notice there's about 3/4 a turn between no free spool and really free spool, so it may be better with a lever not a knob.

Is there a knurled knob from a different reel that could work in its place?
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Keta

It is not really a cast control  it is to adjust the spool thrust.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

JasonGotaProblem

Quote from: Keta on September 22, 2022, 03:19:46 PMIt is not really a cast control  it is to adjust the spool thrust.
That may well be what it is. But what I'm interested in is what it could become.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Keta

You will wear out the spool shaft and/or the bearing cap if you use it as a cast control.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Gfish

A penny or a washer with a flattened edge can be used to adjust those in the field.
 Other Penn's, such as the Levelmatic's or the Mag 10 have a ball-bearing/cast control adjustment system that bears looking at. I remember a nylon looking plunger dealie combined with some kinda rubber part on my reels outboard to the b.bearing. Look at the b.bearing cups on your HS, maybe you can come-up with something if there's enough room in there, that adds spring pressure to the spool shaft.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

steelfish

.....or just static mag that reel.

make some casts to check what would be the average weight you were using and static mag it accordingly, it works!!

 
The Baja Guy