saltiga frame problems

Started by alantani, December 23, 2008, 02:28:37 PM

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alantani

i only have the one set of pictures for the spool issues, but i've had two guys come to me with broken spools from daiwa saltigas.  you've seen this one before. 



now i've come up with another issue.  check this out.  it's a saltiga 50.







so what happened is this.  i added a small bead of grease to the screw hole.  done that a thousand times with other reels.  just as i gave the screw driver that last turn, i heard a "snap."   i was horrified to see that the frame had cracked at the screw hole.  um, $200 worth of horrified, i might add.  that's the cost of a new frame.  i spoke to another guy that does alot of reel work and he says he had the same thing happen, only he used corrosion x on the screw thread.

so what i think happened is this.  the tolerances on the threads of the screw holes are so tight that there's no room for air, excess grease or excess oil to squeeze out when tightening down the screws.  this causes a crack at this one weak spot of our $200 frame.  a guy sent this reel for me to service and there's no way that it's going back broken.  i just have to eat this one.   
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

alantani

QuoteI have a Saltiga 50 that I want looked at and fixed up with better drag. I figure that you get many requests to work on reels and if you are not interested I understand. If you are interested please reply back.  Thanks

i'd be happy to take a look at it.  here's the saltiga post to give you an idea of what gets done.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=40.0  you have a handle upgrade option.  i'd recommend the 4/0 if you are interested.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=158.0  and here's the info on shipping and a few other items.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=277.0  please note a particular issue with the saltiga that i cannot guarantee for you.  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=173.0  if the frame cracks, you will have to live with it or replace at cost, and cost is $200.  it happened only once to me, and i will be VERY careful, but it is not something in can cover for you if it happens again.  a friend of mine, who is VERY skilled, broke two in a row and is probably 2 for 20.  i am only 1 for 20.  thanks!  alan
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

alantani

Quote


Hi Alan,

I have 4 Saltigas (30T and 40's) which I took the side plates off.  I have noticed that the screws have blue thread lockers on them or something similar.  It was a bit of work just to get the screws off.  Since you suspected that the tight tolerances caused the cracking problem, it is possible that the thread locker are acting as thread sealant (pipe dope) that prevents air/grease to escape.  I have taken the removed screw and while holding them with a cloth and finger nails over the cloth to dig into the thread, used the electric screw driver to give it turn into the fingers and out again.  This removed most of the blue thread lockers and made it easier to thread into the frames.  I test threaded them slowly into the frame before assembly to so that the screw go down all that way which further removed the blue stuff from the screws and the hole.  This seems to work because the screws seems to mate easier and feels looser.  I have used Cal's grease in the screws and the holes and it was ok.  Perhaps you can try this on your next one.



you're probably right!
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

TheReelShop

#3
Bringing this back. Happened to me which is how I found this.
The problem here is craftsmanship.

When you take the side plate off, and look at the frame, the holes are not centered relative to the frame thickness. One side has very little/thin piece of aluminum which can split very easily.

Here is one frame which broke, and the other already has created the hairline crack.

Cor

I've had my spool break like the one in Alans picture, but have not seen a broken frame like that.
Ouch, not good for an expensive reel.
Cornelis

Gfish

#5
Maybe just a thin grease film on a few of the screw threads after cleaning-out the holes. How would you get excess locktite out though? I see what you mean about the screw-hole locations.
Are these reels made in Japan or somewhere else?
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

TheReelShop

Quote from: Gfish on March 15, 2023, 07:48:06 PMMaybe just a thin grease film on a few of the screw threads after cleaning-out the holes. How would you get excess locktite out though? I see what you mean about the screw-hole locations.
Are these reels made in Japan or somewhere else?


Yea these are made in Japan. You look at PENN for example or Shimano, and they re centered.

TheReelShop

#7
This reel is horrible inside which probably didn't help..

jurelometer

I'm not sure I would blame workmanship.  I would lean toward  a design issue.  Those holes are right where they were intended to be.  If they were centered on the frame, the left sideplate (and therefore the whole reel) would have to be a bit larger.  Looking at the fully broken frames and outside cracks, I am not sure centering would have helped enough.

It looks to me like Daiwa wanted to make a reel that could compete with the bar stock/forged aluminum competitors, but at a lower price point.  That meant going with cast aluminum.  Cast aluminum can be plenty strong if the design accommodates it, but if you want to make it look like a bar stock competitor, the walls will be  a bit too thin in some spots.  Plus to get the "right" look, you want to be able to machine it smooth and anodize it, limiting the alloy choices.  The anodizing process can also possibly make cast aluminum parts more brittle.

If you ask me, the root cause was trying to make a cast aluminum reel look like a bar stock reel. It is almost always a design mistake to try to imitate the design  that you would use with a more premium material. It just increases the odds of something going wrong.

In terms of avoiding cracking when tightening the screws, I don't think that the "tight tolerances" Alan mentioned is the issue.  Threads are always going to seal pretty well once they get tight.  With blind holes, trapped air under the screw can compress, but liquids will not. 

It shouldn't matter what type of lubricant you use, just how much of it.  The tightening action is going to drive lubricant into the base of the hole, and when you run out of airspace, something is going to have to expand as the gap below the screw shrinks. Unlike machined bar stock or forged aluminum that has something akin to a grain, the porosity and granular nature of cast aluminum keeps it from having much elasticity, so it cracks.  The best you can do is use as little lubricant as possible and not tighten too much. I would consider blasting the holes clean with compressed air and just use a small coating directly on the screw toward the head.

But it is possible that you will still get a failure eventually just from the stress fatigue from the tightened screw threads.

Or something like that...

-J

TheReelShop

Quote from: jurelometer on March 15, 2023, 11:00:08 PMI'm not sure I would blame workmanship.  I would lean toward  a design issue.  Those holes are right where they were intended to be.  If they were centered on the frame, the left sideplate (and therefore the whole reel) would have to be a bit larger.  Looking at the fully broken frames and outside cracks, I am not sure centering would have helped enough.

It looks to me like Daiwa wanted to make a reel that could compete with the bar stock/forged aluminum competitors, but at a lower price point.  That meant going with cast aluminum.  Cast aluminum can be plenty strong if the design accommodates it, but if you want to make it look like a bar stock competitor, the walls will be  a bit too thin in some spots.  Plus to get the "right" look, you want to be able to machine it smooth and anodize it, limiting the alloy choices.  The anodizing process can also possibly make cast aluminum parts more brittle.

If you ask me, the root cause was trying to make a cast aluminum reel look like a bar stock reel. It is almost always a design mistake to try to imitate the design  that you would use with a more premium material. It just increases the odds of something going wrong.

In terms of avoiding cracking when tightening the screws, I don't think that the "tight tolerances" Alan mentioned is the issue.  Threads are always going to seal pretty well once they get tight.  With blind holes, trapped air under the screw can compress, but liquids will not. 

It shouldn't matter what type of lubricant you use, just how much of it.  The tightening action is going to drive lubricant into the base of the hole, and when you run out of airspace, something is going to have to expand as the gap below the screw shrinks. Unlike machined bar stock or forged aluminum that has something akin to a grain, the porosity and granular nature of cast aluminum keeps it from having much elasticity, so it cracks.  The best you can do is use as little lubricant as possible and not tighten too much. I would consider blasting the holes clean with compressed air and just use a small coating directly on the screw toward the head.

But it is possible that you will still get a failure eventually just from the stress fatigue from the tightened screw threads.

Or something like that...

-J

You said it correctly, design flaw is the appropriate term. And yes I had meant holes being centered in terms of the whole reel itself not just the frame holes. I did not describe my opinion/issue the way I should have. But again goes back to what you said, design flaw.
The topic of Daiwa using a less superior material to promote is as one piece bar stock reel and offer it at a competitive price point is interesting, that's way more than I would ever know although valuable when it comes down to making a purchase.

Customer doesn't want the reel as it's not worth it at this point given that it's hard to find parts.

Thanks for that explanation I've read your other posts and they're quite Intricate!

jurelometer

Quote from: TheReelShop on March 21, 2023, 03:36:27 AMYou said it correctly, design flaw is the appropriate term. And yes I had meant holes being centered in terms of the whole reel itself not just the frame holes. I did not describe my opinion/issue the way I should have. But again goes back to what you said, design flaw.

No worries.  I was guessing that you might have meant design from how you phrased it, but I thought to mention it to help clarify. 

Thanks for posting you findings and conclusions.

Looking again at those shallow frame holes, I am wondering if this is one of the exceptions where threadlock is a good idea.  Wouldn't have to use as much torque.  It looks to me that there is little to no push/pull load on those  screws, and what shear load there is will not be affected much by how tight the screws are, so the purpose of tightening the screws is mostly just to keep them from getting loose.

It would back up my assertion if Daiwa only used threadlock on the problematic screw holes.

-J

steelfish

not only Daiwa have those Design flaws on high end reels

check what I found on an Accurate Fury 500N reel
The Baja Guy

foakes

#12
It is hard to know when the grease/screw pressure is too much for the frame before it blows apart.

I recall Alan warning us about this hydraulic action grease force on International's  and Shimanos about 10 years ago — when inserting a greased screw into a "blind" screw hole.

Add that to possibly a lower grade frame material will certainly have this result.

However, knowing that it will on these and certain other reels —-

Would it be an idea to drill a 1/16" hole in the bottom of any blind frame screw holes?

Might save $200 —- plus, not too long in the future —- Daiwa will not be providing frames for these anymore.

Would a call to Daiwa possibly result in them sending out a new frame?

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

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                                                     Fred O.

jurelometer

#13
Through drilling seems like a reasonable idea (except that I hate tiny drills :) ), but you would have to keep the opening plugged with grease.  Galvanic corrosion with stainless to 6061 aluminum is bad enough, but cast aluminum is even worse.

Shortening the screws a bit would be another option, assuming that the holes were deep enough. There only needs to be about three full turns after the taper to get to full load capacity.  But that assumes that the threads are healthy, which is less of a given with the cast aluminum.

Alex: That blown out hole in the Accurate has got to be an accident/workmanship issue, or a customer trying to do an oversized tap for a repair job. I can't believe that somebody would design that in. If somebody tried to use the clamp with a deckhand mount...  Do they all come like that ?

-J

Gfish

Alex, that screw hole in the Furry was for a rod clamp, right. What's the opposing side's hole look like?
Now I'm wondering about the the 1980's Daiwa Sealine reels I have. Aluminum 2-piece frame & side-plate, with the steel rings on the outside. "Cast" aluminum? But yeah, the steel rings on the outside would reinforce the the edges. But maybe only against being banged by something? Ever see/hear of the frame & plate cracking on these, maybe at the screw hole?
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!