Custom insert for the 114H & 115L

Started by Alto Mare, March 07, 2015, 05:38:41 PM

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Alto Mare

I received the custom insert from Adam (Three se7ens)  and decided to give it a try. I was going to mount the reel and take it outside, but everything is frozen, so this will have to do for now.

I decided to place them in a 115L (9/0).

The kit comes with an Acetal washer for under the gear, I believe this one is a must, (6) 1mm carbon fiber washers, (5) .80mm keyed ss washers , (1) 2.60mm keyed washer for the top and of coarse the insert

Here is the layout

I tried installing the insert through the opening, but wasn't able to, so I took it apart

here are the washers fully seated in the gear

I will try these by using a Top-Hat washer with an Acetal washer underneath

I tied the line to a 4x4 post, attached a scale and pulled on the reel whle holding it with both hands


Here is what I got, 65lbs

Yes you will be able to pull 65lbs, it isn't easy, but if I can do it so can you. Be careful though, make sure you use a strong line, also, whatever you attach the line to could take it. This is some serious weight, if something snaps, you could really get hurt.

I took the reel apart to check on the washers and everything else and all looked good

this time I decided to go with the original washer with the felt and spacer, i'm showing it on the right


Tied the line to the post again and gave it a pull.
This is what I got this time, 70lbs

By the way, listen to these poppies go, titanium dog springs from Gary.

This test is done for the purpose of testing the insert, the washers, the gears and everything else to their limitations.
I was thrilled with the results.
The drags on the reel increased gradually, I got to 70lbs by turning the star with one hand, not easy at max, but still able to.
This reel is ridiculously smooth at 35lbs and that's where I would recommend to max it at.
Me personally, when the time calls for it, I'll go as far  I could. To me it would be exciting having a monster blow one of my reels.
I was surprised to find that using the stock washer gave better results than the Top-Hat, that washer has a ring where the felt washer attaches to, there goes that theory of having a wide belleville on top to spread the load.
This reel did much better with a ring no thicker than 1/16" making contact on the top of the drag stack. The numbers were higher and the star turned with less effort.
By the way an Acetal washer was installed on top and bottom on both combinations.
This upgrade just gave the Sharks and Tunas a harder time.
This is an excellent upgrade thank you Adam for making these available to us, I believe you hit it out of the park with this one.
With that said, as for these upgrades and all others we've been doing, you guys do it at your own risk.
I will not be responsible if you get hurt or if your reel blows up, I'm simply putting out information on what's out there and available to us, the rest is up to you.
Any questions, just ask...enjoy it!

Sal

Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Dominick

Leave the gun.  Take the cannolis.

There are two things I don't like about fishing.  Getting up early in the morning and boats.  The rest of it is fun.

Three se7ens

Very impressive, its actually a little higher than I was expecting. 

Thank you for testing these.

I need to make some adjustments and tweaks to make the manufacturing aspect a little more consistent.  Next week Ill have pricing finalized, and have some available for purchase.

Alto Mare

Adam, I need to ask a favor, if you could, could you make an Acetal washer in the same dimensions as the felt washer? I would love to replace that felt washer with it.
I believe McMastersCarr has the correct thickness, that would be awesome.
Thanks!
Sal
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Shark Hunter

Life is Good!

Tiddlerbasher


Tightlines667

#6
That looks like a truely winning combination.

Great work on design and production Adam!
&
Great job testing these beasts Sal!

I love the design, and think the under and over gear Delron washers are key to isolating the drag stack, and allowing it to function smoothly, especially at higher drag settings.  I think the top hat coupled with a heavy Belleville should work well.  

Sal,
I am wondering if you have experimented at all with trying to use different styles and/or combinations of spring washers or cupped Belleville washers to try to obtain a smoother/more linear low-end drag curve here?  Seems to me that once you start talking these kinds of numbers, the shape and characteristics of the drag curve take on new meaning.  Would 2 cupped Belleville washers possibly 'lay out' or flatten the curve a bit?  I am wondering if you get to a point where small changes in the star equal big changes in drag numbers.  Maybe it would prove useful to include different drag output at different star positions in the testing phase, or to plot a simple drag curve graph with a few points?  

My other question regarding these inserts is regarding the availability of the CF washers.  Sounds like these will be included in the kits, but what about several years down the road, when/if they might need replacing?  Is there any way that the design could utilize some stock penn parts that may wear out, so that future parts availability will not be an issue?  (i.e. are the 6N-525MAG* CF washers just too small to have considered designing these inserts to work with?, or is that moving backwards?)  

Note:  I see this is being discussed in another thread already...

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13339.0

Also, I was wondering how these guys would perform in the 12/0 with the more recently available stock stainless steel gears, and upcomming stainless gear sleeves?
Would it be terribly difficult and/or cost prohibitive to machine a few inserts with appropriate dimensions to fit this larger main gear?  I am sure a market exists, but I guess that would be a different project altogether and outside the scope of this thread.

These inserts are not my forte and it looks like you guys have this well in hand.  Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

Great work!


https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6N-525MAG.aspx


"Edited as per Moderators to correct Scott's Bait & Tackle over to their new store name Mystic Reel Parts / www.mysticparts.com"

Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Shark Hunter

Were those stock gears Sal? Or Chui's?
Life is Good!

Three se7ens

Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 07, 2015, 10:58:18 PM
That looks like a truely winning combination.  Great work on design and production Adam!  and great joh testing these beasts Sal!

I love the design, and think the under and over gear Delron washers are key to isolating the drag stack, and allowing it to function smoothly, especially at higher drag settings.  I think the top hat coupled with a heavy Belleville should work well. 

Sal,
I am wondering if you have experimented at all with trying to use different styles and/or combinations of spring washers or cupped Belleville washers to try to obtain a smoother/more linear low-end drag curve here?  Seems to me that once you start talking these kinds of numbers, the shape and characteristics ofbthe drag curve take on new meaning.  Would 2 cupped Belleville washers possibly 'lay out' or flatten the curve a bit?  I am wondering if you get to a point where small changes in the star equal big changes in drag numbers.  Maybe it would prove useful to include different drag output at different star pisitions in the testing phase, or to plot a simple drag curve graph with a few points? 

My other question regarding these inserts is regarding the availability of the CF washers.  Sounds like these will be included in the kits, but what about several years down the road, when/if the might need replacing.  Is there any way that the design could utilize some stock penn parts that may wear out, so that future parts availability will not be an issue? 

Also, I was wondering if you had tested these inserts in the newer stock penn stainless gear sets. 

These inserts are not my forte and it looks like you guys have this well in hand.  Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

Great work!




I believe all the newer penn stainless gears already have the versa-drag system, so there is no need for this insert, not will it fit.

The low end linearity of this kit is already really good, I tested 7 washers in my 9/0, while Sal's and the rest will only have 6 carbon washers.  The minimum drag on mine was only 2 lbs and it ramped up smoothly and progressively.  You would have no problem fishing this at 8-10 lbs of drag.  The drag cure is quite nice here, and I think the issue you are thinking of is more related to lever drag reels.

I talked about washer availability in another post, but Ill mention it again here.  I am not bound by minimum orders or long lead times for a production run.  I typically have parts in hand in a week after placing an order with the cutter.  Replacement washers will always be available, and I will start stocking replacements soon after these are available for purchase. 

Daron, I think Sal used a steel penn gear. 

Tightlines667

Quote from: Three se7ens on March 07, 2015, 11:20:41 PM
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 07, 2015, 10:58:18 PM
That looks like a truely winning combination.  Great work on design and production Adam!  and great joh testing these beasts Sal!

I love the design, and think the under and over gear Delron washers are key to isolating the drag stack, and allowing it to function smoothly, especially at higher drag settings.  I think the top hat coupled with a heavy Belleville should work well. 

Sal,
I am wondering if you have experimented at all with trying to use different styles and/or combinations of spring washers or cupped Belleville washers to try to obtain a smoother/more linear low-end drag curve here?  Seems to me that once you start talking these kinds of numbers, the shape and characteristics ofbthe drag curve take on new meaning.  Would 2 cupped Belleville washers possibly 'lay out' or flatten the curve a bit?  I am wondering if you get to a point where small changes in the star equal big changes in drag numbers.  Maybe it would prove useful to include different drag output at different star pisitions in the testing phase, or to plot a simple drag curve graph with a few points? 

My other question regarding these inserts is regarding the availability of the CF washers.  Sounds like these will be included in the kits, but what about several years down the road, when/if the might need replacing.  Is there any way that the design could utilize some stock penn parts that may wear out, so that future parts availability will not be an issue? 

Also, I was wondering if you had tested these inserts in the newer stock penn stainless gear sets. 

These inserts are not my forte and it looks like you guys have this well in hand.  Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

Great work!




I believe all the newer penn stainless gears already have the versa-drag system, so there is no need for this insert, not will it fit.

The low end linearity of this kit is already really good, I tested 7 washers in my 9/0, while Sal's and the rest will only have 6 carbon washers.  The minimum drag on mine was only 2 lbs and it ramped up smoothly and progressively.  You would have no problem fishing this at 8-10 lbs of drag.  The drag cure is quite nice here, and I think the issue you are thinking of is more related to lever drag reels.

I talked about washer availability in another post, but Ill mention it again here.  I am not bound by minimum orders or long lead times for a production run.  I typically have parts in hand in a week after placing an order with the cutter.  Replacement washers will always be available, and I will start stocking replacements soon after these are available for purchase. 

Daron, I think Sal used a steel penn gear. 

I modified my origional post as I got a few of my thoughts straightened out. 

Great news on CF washer availability. 

Good to hear the config tested had a good low end drag curve.  I know the drag curve talk is usually reserved for lever drag reels, but I think it can be applicable to star drag models as well.  As I'm sure you know, the spring washers do more then just keep the star from backing off. 

The third thought then was whether it may be feasable to produce inserts down the road to fit in the stock 12/0 stainless mains, and if so, to maybe consider the use of the same inner gear dimensions, or CF washers that you are using here.  70lbs max is plenty for a 12 or even 14/0 reel.  Though I am not so sure the stock stands (and posts) would be up to the task.  A beefier stand (like cal produced for the International 80s), and 3 stainless cross bars to replace paired posts Would likely solve that issue though.  Now I'm just musing.
Hope springs eternal
for the consumate fishermen.

Alto Mare

#10
Quote from: Tightlines666 on March 07, 2015, 10:58:18 PM
That looks like a truely winning combination.  Great work on design and production Adam!  and great joh testing these beasts Sal!

I love the design, and think the under and over gear Delron washers are key to isolating the drag stack, and allowing it to function smoothly, especially at higher drag settings.  I think the top hat coupled with a heavy Belleville should work well.  

Sal,
I am wondering if you have experimented at all with trying to use different styles and/or combinations of spring washers or cupped Belleville washers to try to obtain a smoother/more linear low-end drag curve here?  Seems to me that once you start talking these kinds of numbers, the shape and characteristics of the drag curve take on new meaning.  Would 2 cupped Belleville washers possibly 'lay out' or flatten the curve a bit?  I am wondering if you get to a point where small changes in the star equal big changes in drag numbers.  Maybe it would prove useful to include different drag output at different star positions in the testing phase, or to plot a simple drag curve graph with a few points?  

My other question regarding these inserts is regarding the availability of the CF washers.  Sounds like these will be included in the kits, but what about several years down the road, when/if they might need replacing?  Is there any way that the design could utilize some stock penn parts (i.e. are the 6N-525MAG* CF washers just too small to have considered designing these inserts to work with?, or is that moving backwards?)  that may wear out, so that future parts availability will not be an issue?  

Also, I was wondering how these guys would perform in the 12/0 with the more recently available stock stainless steel gears, and upcomming stainless gear sleeves?  Would it be terribly difficult to machine a few inserts with appropriate dimensions to fit this larger main gear?  Guess that would be a different project altogether and outside the scope of this thread.

These inserts are not my forte and it looks like you guys have this well in hand.  Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

Great work!

https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/6N-525MAG.aspx



John, no need to experiment with spring washers, I tried two different ones and the stock did much better. This experiment proved what I always thought, a tension spring in smaller diameter does much better than a Belleville. The pressure will spread out just the same, but the star will spin with less effort with the smaller spring. I mentioned this above.
About the drag curve, that's what makes this kit awesome, you'll be in charge of how steep you want it or how soft. I can assure you, on mine it will be set at its fullest.

Sal
Quote from: Three se7ens on March 07, 2015, 11:20:41 PM

Daron, I think Sal used a steel penn gear.  
The gears are Black Pearl's with the heat treated pinion and they did very good I might add.
Although I don't show every little details, the washers and gears have been inspected with a magnifying glass. Not a sign of stress on both.
The 4x4 post by the steps was custom made by me from an old 8"x8" post that was originally in front of the house and I decided to reuse it. It is bolted from the inside with 5" log bolts and 2" washers. When I pulled at around 60Lbs, the post made some noise, but stayed put.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

BMITCH

This insert is OVER THE TOP!! I got my 113h set and it is such an improvement to the drag.....I don't know where to start! If the fit and finish was anything less than spot on then I think it would be so-so. Not so in this case. I think this set would give any penn gear set that extra room for " bearing down " even for the brass set of gears. Let's face it, if you were to have a decent fish on and had a stock set of gears WITH the insert installed, well you could button down on that fish and have a better than average chance of beating it. My point being...you don't need SS everything to put these in. The drag is there IF you need it!
luck is the residue of design.

Alto Mare

Bob, I agree with you, but not all the way.
This kit makes the reel extremely smooth at 30+Lbs, a smooth reel has a harder time to fail  than a jerky one.
With that said, if I had the brass gears and not Black Pearl's gears with the heat treated pinion, I'm pretty sure I would have damaged the gears at 60+Lbs.
I would like someone else to try to pull he reel at 70Lbs, not that it can't be done, we already know it can, I just want him to feel the force it takes to get it there.
Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.

Shark Hunter

I'm with you Sal,
There is no way a stock Penn gear can take that kind of Pressure for an extended period of time.
70lbs of drag is about twice what a stock 14/0 can put out. There is no way an average individual can hold onto that for longer than a couple minutes.
I can see this set should only be used with Chui's Gears if you plan on buttoning it down.
That was a great test!
John,
Hold your horses brother. ;) The Big Dogs are coming! ;D
Life is Good!

Black Pearl

Quote from: Shark Hunter on March 08, 2015, 12:36:57 AM
I'm with you Sal,
There is no way a stock Penn gear can take that kind of Pressure for an extended period of time.
70lbs of drag is about twice what a stock 14/0 can put out. There is no way an average individual can hold onto that for longer than a couple minutes.
I can see this set should only be used with Chui's Gears if you plan on buttoning it down.
That was a great test!
John,
Hold your horses brother. ;) The Big Dogs are coming! ;D

Daron,

Don't forget the Accurate gear set. If it was not Accurate, we would not have what we have today...