alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?
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Author Topic: Penn Senator 9/0 High speed gears anyone?  (Read 9864 times)
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trond_solem
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« on: March 13, 2015, 04:42:24 AM »

I don't think I have seen this before.

High-speed gears for the 115 reel.

The opening in the side plate allows for a maximum diamteter of the main gear of 39.8mm.
Allowing for some clearance, it is possible to make a 3:1 gear set. The OD of the main gear is 39.4mm. That leaves just 0.2mm clearance around the gear, but that should be enough.

I won't make them, but if any of you wants to make this gear set, I can send you 3d models of them.
They can also be made for hex or multitooth drag washers. Changing the design to hex or multitooth is a small and quick mod to the models.



* 115 HS gears.JPG (252.73 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 267 times.)
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trond_solem
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 03:05:48 PM »

A little bit more work and it is possible to take it to 3.3:1 gearing.

It will require the use of hard stainless steel like 15-5ph or 17-4ph.
With the correct heat treatment they are far stronger than 316 or any other common stainless steel.

The 3d models are still available for anyone who wants to make them.


* 115 HS gears 1-33-v2.JPG (276.87 KB, 1024x768 - viewed 306 times.)
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Alto Mare
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 03:19:00 PM »

Be careful increasing the ratio on those, the larger the spool the harder to turn the handle. Increasing the diameter on a spool by just 1/2 inch makes a huge difference.
Take the 16/0 for instance, that reel has a 1.6:1 ratio, increasing it to 2.6:1, would make it very hard to turn the handle.
It is ok to increase the ratio on most, but can't over do it,  it could work against you.
The 6/0 and 9/0 share the same main gear, but the spool on the 6/0 is appro. 5/8" smaller in diameter.
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trond_solem
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 10:40:15 PM »

Be careful increasing the ratio on those, the larger the spool the harder to turn the handle. Increasing the diameter on a spool by just 1/2 inch makes a huge difference.
Take the 16/0 for instance, that reel has a 1.6:1 ratio, increasing it to 2.6:1, would make it very hard to turn the handle.
It is ok to increase the ratio on most, but can't over do it,  it could work against you.
The 6/0 and 9/0 share the same main gear, but the spool on the 6/0 is appro. 5/8" smaller in diameter.

That depends on how and what you fish.
If you just winch the fish in with the rod in a holder, by just turning the haandle, you will need a low ratio. If you use the rod to pump the fish in and use the handle to take up the "slack", you will need the speed of a higher ratio.
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Alto Mare
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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 03:24:27 AM »

Good luck Trond, I hope it works out for you.

Sal
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marc77
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2015, 06:38:41 AM »



How about a lower gear ratio for the 114hlw and 115 Senators? 

I would be the first to purchase gears that would yield a 2:1 ratio for these reels.  And I would be willing to pay a high price for them.

The 114hlw has a 2.8 to 1 ratio.  The 115 has a 2.5 to 1.  Both reels have the same main gear.  The pinion gear on the 115 is larger (the same as the one used on the 114 black senator).  Both reels have 28" line recovery per handle turn.

When you start to get older, you realize that fighting a tuna, shark or swordfish with a gear ratio that is higher than 2 to 1 becomes hard work.  20" line recovery is perfect.  Not too slow and not too fast. 

The Senators are great reels.  However, except for the 114(black), the gear ratio is too high for fighting large fish using the rail.





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trond_solem
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2015, 07:34:41 AM »



How about a lower gear ratio for the 114hlw and 115 Senators? 

I would be the first to purchase gears that would yield a 2:1 ratio for these reels.  And I would be willing to pay a high price for them.

The 114hlw has a 2.8 to 1 ratio.  The 115 has a 2.5 to 1.  Both reels have the same main gear.  The pinion gear on the 115 is larger (the same as the one used on the 114 black senator).  Both reels have 28" line recovery per handle turn.

When you start to get older, you realize that fighting a tuna, shark or swordfish with a gear ratio that is higher than 2 to 1 becomes hard work.  20" line recovery is perfect.  Not too slow and not too fast. 

The Senators are great reels.  However, except for the 114(black), the gear ratio is too high for fighting large fish using the rail.

It is possible to make lower ratio gears. How low I can get depends on the available space for the pinoin gear.
I think it is possible to fit a 21-tooth gear in there. A 43-tooth main gear will give you a 1:2.048 ratio.
If anyone wants to make and sell the gears, I can make the 3d models for them.

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Alto Mare
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2015, 07:50:56 AM »

If you're going that low, there is no need for the gears, acctually, there is no need for the rod and reel as well. Get yourself a nice pair of leather gloves and take it from there.
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2015, 08:04:38 AM »

If we look at the Internationals, Shimanos, Okumas, and Everols -- we see they offer 2-Speeds in their larger reels.

It gives the angler more than a chance -- to land large aggressive fighting fish on a regular basis -- it actually makes it possible.

In theory, a higher speed large Senator sounds good on paper.

But the likely practical reality -- is like driving a car.  You start out at the bottom of a long uphill stretch in high gear -- and at some point, far from the top -- the transmission will not allow the car to go forward any further without damage to the components.  

With a high geared large Senator -- I think the same thing would happen -- but it would be the angler, as well as the reel, that would poop out.  Of course, that is assuming one is targeting mostly large fish.  With small fish, there would not be much difference, most likely.

The way progress and innovation happens, is by folks like Trond coming up with ideas -- then tweaking the possibilities into other ideas.

Thanks for your clever ideas, Trond -- and please keep them coming.

Thomas Edison did not invent the light bulb on the first try -- there were hundreds of failed experiments before any success.  The main thing -- he did not give up.

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred
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Keta
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2015, 08:06:16 AM »

I have 2 two speed reels with 3.1:1/1:1, it's nice to have it that low when a large tuna is doing a death spiral 25'-100' below the boat.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 08:10:56 AM by Keta » Logged

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Alto Mare
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2015, 08:35:18 AM »

A single speed reel needs to be well balanced, that's why on the top of this thread I said that you need to be cautious on how high you go with the ratio on these Senators. To me the 3.25:1 on the 6/0 is one of the best upgrade and so is the 2.8:1 on the 9/0...very manageable.
Accurate was on top of their game, I'm sure they did lots of tests with those. They introduced the 3.25:1 and they make sense to me.
These are good for an average person, but I could see being a little harder fishing those for an older person, unless you're Dwight.
With no option of a second speed, The 1.2:1 on the 9/0 is just too low. Just my opinion.
Sal
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trond_solem
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2015, 10:24:23 AM »

A single speed reel needs to be well balanced, that's why on the top of this thread I said that you need to be cautious on how high you go with the ratio on these Senators. To me the 3.25:1 on the 6/0 is one of the best upgrade and so is the 2.8:1 on the 9/0...very manageable.
Accurate was on top of their game, I'm sure they did lots of tests with those. They introduced the 3.25:1 and they make sense to me.
These are good for an average person, but I could see being a little harder fishing those for an older person, unless you're Dwight.
With no option of a second speed, The 1.2:1 on the 9/0 is just too low. Just my opinion.
Sal

I agree, but what I wrote was a 2:1 (numbers the other way around) gearing ratio. It's still slow, but it is what the gentleman asked for.
That's one revolution on the handle is 2 revs on the spool.
If they ever will be produced is another question. Surely if there is enough demand, I will have the 2:1 gear kit made.

Otherwise, Black Pearl's 2.8:1gears (2.9:1 in reality?) is an excellent choice.
It is possible to go higher. Up to 3.3:1, but that may be a too high gearing ratio.

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trond_solem
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 10:28:57 AM »

If you're going that low, there is no need for the gears, acctually, there is no need for the rod and reel as well. Get yourself a nice pair of leather gloves and take it from there.

I don't think so.
How can the difference between a 2.5 gearing and a 2.0 gearing be so big that you can use your hands and just pull the line with the 2.0 gearing ratio?

« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 10:38:31 AM by trond_solem » Logged
Alto Mare
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2015, 10:35:15 AM »

Sorry Trond, I thought you wrote 1.2:1, 2:1 make sense.



Thomas Edison did not invent the light bulb on the first try -- there were hundreds of failed experiments before any success.  The main thing -- he did not give up.

Just my opinions.

Best,

Fred
This is funny to me Grin, not everything you read is accurate Fred, where I come from, they thought me Alessandro Volta invented the light bulb in the 1800's, not Thomas Edison.
This conversation came up over 40 years ago, when I got kicked out of the classroom here, when I argued with the teacher on the same subject.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 10:37:14 AM by Alto Mare » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2015, 10:55:46 AM »

Marc, instead of slowing down a 114HLW, have you considered getting a black 114, or do you need a larger spool for greater line capacity?   The 114 is a formidable reel in it's own right.  My Accurate frame, 7-drag stack 114 will easily pull over 30 lbs drag very smoothly.  At least it does testing on the bench; I haven't tested it on the water.  Or you can get a much longer handle arm for the 115 that will give you more leverage when cranking, as well as the giving the illusion of slowing down the retrieve ratio.
George

    
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 09:01:35 AM by George4741 » Logged

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