Penn Reels - just as you find them

[milne]

Hi Steve,  The seller described the reel as, it looks like cracks in both plates, but he said they weren't on closer inspection.
              It almost looks like it has small cracks, radiating from the centre of the reel outwards, diagonally,  then someone has tried with a heavy sand paper in the opposite direction to try and sand them out. I don't think they are cracks, they certainly don't go right thru, I applied a bit of pressure when I had it stripped down, there's no movement and if anything they are superficial if at all, I believe someone has put diagonal cuts with a knife over both plates then as mentioned with a heavy sand paper or another sharp object, tried to sand them out, but didn't do a very good job.
A shame really, but it's all back together, working as it should and from a few steps back, hardly noticeable on the shelf   

Col
         

[1badf350]

Definitely an ugly duckling second gen 4/0, but a unique set of features I suppose.
Unplated drilled spool, 400yd stand, external drags, wooden plain counterweight handle, hex clicker.

[Penn Chronology]

Definitely an ugly duckling second gen 4/0, but a unique set of features I suppose.
Unplated drilled spool, 400yd stand, external drags, wooden plain counterweight handle, hex clicker.
Posted on: Today at 03:53:42 AM
Posted by: milne

All these odd parts are from the same era. The handle, clicker button, spool is even an older design and 400 yard stand are all late 1940 parts. The external drags are first gen. When the reel turned to second gen, the external drags were gone. So here you have a reel that brings up many questions.

1----What is the length of the handle blade? A 4/0 should have a 4.5 inch handle blade. The wood knob and one piece plain chrome plated counter weight is pure late 1940's but that style is not usually seen on a 4/0. Maybe I am wrong on that, but I am more accustomed to seeing that style handle on a Delmar. That is weird.

2----The drilled spool is first gen design. Whenever I see a spool without plating, I immediately think, "engineering department part". A un-plated spool should never leave the factory. That does not mean it does not happen. I have a complete, perfectly functioning International 130 with half the reel missing all its finishes and I bought it on eBay. In the case of this 4/0, I see a old style spool on a second gen reel. But the second gen status of the reel is in question too. IMHO

3----The 400 yard stamped stand fits for a 1940's 4/0. So that is OK. The 6/0 jumps to 500 and so on as we go up in size. The stand could be normal for the era of the reel.

4---External drags is the kink. Once the 4/0 made the transition from first to second gen the drag went from external to internal. Now, I am getting old and my memory fades sometimes. We may have discussed this before. Where is Ted? He is sharper than me and may be able to help here.

5----Hex clicker button is like some one did this just to make this reel different. Normally, the hex clicker button can bounce to other that Sea Gate models, but not the Senator line. How many of you have seen a hex clicker button on any Senator? This may be a transition experiment that should have been taken down and lost to the ages.

With all this speculation, I feel I need to go back in time. There is no one around anymore to answer these questions, so I welcome all critical thinking members to join in the speculation....

[broadway]

Mike, you're right, no one is around except Ted.  He holds a lot of the Penn knowledge remaining out there.  He also knows what parts interchange better than anyone else out there.
I'll do my best within my pay grade...

1) Handle blade length is a question, but I have seen the wood knob (like on my first gen 4/0) except it has a coin edge CB handle not the one piece plain counter weight.  The palin one piece handle is typically not seen on 4/0's but it is on 3/0's.

2) The drilled spool is first gen for sure and I have a whole bunch of unplated spools.  Some just the arbor and flanges are unplated and others completely unplated... at least for the 3/0-12/0.  I call it second gen for sure due to the location of the lever and the drive train.  My guess is a transition reel (like the 9/0 I have with the same situation) from first gen to second gen.

3) I believe the 3/0-6/0 to all be 400 yds.  I have never seen a 4/0 with a yardage mark, but the first year 3/0 has a 400 yd mark.  Does your first gen 4/0 in the box have the yardage mark?

4) see the end of #2

5) It is the first time I have seen a hex click on a Senator.  I thought the hex click came out in '42 which is definitely an anomaly, as I believe the switch to second gen was made in '40.  There always seems to be a monkey wrench with our beloved Penn reels.

I am not the interchangeable parts guy, so Ted can tell us better, but... If the stand of a 3/0 fits a 4/0, then the posts and spool should as well,  and if the handle of a 3/0 fits the sleeve of a 4/0 I would say this has something to do with a combination of parts for both reels.  If not, may be a transition anomaly?? 

Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.
Dom (I'm no Ray or Brian that's for sure)

[Penn Chronology]

Mike, you're right, no one is around except Ted.  He holds a lot of the Penn knowledge remaining out there.  He also knows what parts interchange better than anyone else out there.
I'll do my best within my pay grade...

1) Handle blade length is a question, but I have seen the wood knob (like on my first gen 4/0) except it has a coin edge CB handle not the one piece plain counter weight.  The palin one piece handle is typically not seen on 4/0's but it is on 3/0's.

2) The drilled spool is first gen for sure and I have a whole bunch of unplated spools.  Some just the arbor and flanges are unplated and others completely unplated... at least for the 3/0-12/0.  I call it second gen for sure due to the location of the lever and the drive train.  My guess is a transition reel (like the 9/0 I have with the same situation) from first gen to second gen.

3) I believe the 3/0-6/0 to all be 400 yds.  I have never seen a 4/0 with a yardage mark, but the first year 3/0 has a 400 yd mark.  Does your first gen 4/0 in the box have the yardage mark?

4) see the end of #2

5) It is the first time I have seen a hex click on a Senator.  I thought the hex click came out in '42 which is definitely an anomaly, as I believe the switch to second gen was made in '40.  There always seems to be a monkey wrench with our beloved Penn reels.

I am not the interchangeable parts guy, so Ted can tell us better, but... If the stand of a 3/0 fits a 4/0, then the posts and spool should as well,  and if the handle of a 3/0 fits the sleeve of a 4/0 I would say this has something to do with a combination of parts for both reels.  If not, may be a transition anomaly??  

Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.
Dom (I'm no Ray or Brian that's for sure)

In answer to all this, let me say I getting too old for this. How come things just cannot stay easy. Go figure?

My responses to your responses------------------

1----I agree. I have never seen a solid counter weight on a 4/0. I am still confused but happy I am not alone in my confusion.

2----Agree again. It is a transition reel...

3----I have two first gen 4/0's. One is the first year model and the other is a later, but not too late a reel with a torpedo handle. They both have waffle style clicker buttons and both have un-marked stands. I feel seeing a 4/0 with a yardage mark is weird because the catalog gives many different yardage uses of a 4/0 depending on the line used. Of all the yardage uses the catalog gives, there is no 400 yard spec. This is weird again.

4---- See answer # 2, or maybe see Answer #3 or it might be answer #7. Oh wait, there is no #7..........

5----Hex clicker buttons are always showing up on reels they do not belong on. According to my research, the proper place to see a hex clicker is on a 1941 Sea Gate. There are so many variations of that rule that I have started a hex clicker file to record where these buttons wind up. They definitely do not belong on any Senator.

Something tells me that 4/0 parts do not exchange with 3/0 parts, but I am afraid to say anything positive about fishing reels at this time in my life. Every time I say that is the way something really is, it isn't...........

Mike ( I am no Ray or Brian either. Ray was my right hand man and Brian took pleasure in making me nuts)

[broadway]

Yeah, it's a confused reel which in turn is confusing us. Definitely a transition reel and definitely odd.
Let's wait for Ted to chime in. I'm sure he can shine some light on it.
Best,
Dom
PS- Mike, don't go anywhere cause then we'll only have Ted... and he fishes too much to answer our questions quickly
Very happy to have what we have for info locked into this site and orca.. it's a treasure trove!

[Deepennz]

Hi There,
I also have a second gen4/0. with a wooden handle, coin edge c/w, drilled, unplated spool, 400yds stamped on the foot and the same hex clicker as the one shown by Chris above. These have to be early 1941 reels - the first of the second gen after the transition in late 1940.
There are a whole lot of reels produced by Penn in 1941 that come with wooden handles and hex clickers - we normally think only of the 1941 seagates, but I have found this combination - wooden handle and hex clicker , on Delmar 285 and 286, 49's and 149's, LB60's, 65's.
In the Senator range I have found second gen Senators with wooden handles and drilled spools in 4/0's, 6/0's 9/0's 10/o's and 12/0's - all these have to be early 1941 reels.
I wish I could do photo's easily - its a struggle!!

Martin

[1badf350]

Martin does your 4/0 also have external drags?

[Benni3]

My question is,,,,? Maybe not this reel,,,but a jonhy cash Cadillac penn reel,,,

[Maxed Out]

Hi There,
I also have a second gen4/0. with a wooden handle, coin edge c/w, drilled, unplated spool, 400yds stamped on the foot and the same hex clicker as the one shown by Chris above. These have to be early 1941 reels - the first of the second gen after the transition in late 1940.
There are a whole lot of reels produced by Penn in 1941 that come with wooden handles and hex clickers - we normally think only of the 1941 seagates, but I have found this combination - wooden handle and hex clicker , on Delmar 285 and 286, 49's and 149's, LB60's, 65's.
In the Senator range I have found second gen Senators with wooden handles and drilled spools in 4/0's, 6/0's 9/0's 10/o's and 12/0's - all these have to be early 1941 reels.
I wish I could do photo's easily - its a struggle!!

Martin

Martin nailed it......thanks for educating us !!

[broadway]

Martin, thanks for the info.  I know what you mean about posting photos, not fun!  I would live to see your collection if you ever figure it out.  I know you collect more than Penn, but a look at your Penn stuff would be sweet!
I've never seen the hex on a Senator, but I have on all the other reels you mentioned along with the 155 and 200 including the wooden handles.
The yardage stamp on the 4/0 is all new to me, but if there are two that's likely how they came in '41.  Does the 4/0 stand fit the 3/0?  Maybe they had leftovers from the 3/0 and used them on some 4/0's??
The question on the handles isn't the grasp, it's the counterweight.  I've never seen the plain counterweight seen on smaller reels on a 4/0.  Yours has the coin edge you say, but this one is different.  Length of handle would be helpful.
Ted, don't tell me you have nothing to add to this....
Best,
Dom

[Cuttyhunker]

Were there LH 1st gen 4/0's made? Could this be a conversion to RH? My LH 2nd gen 4/0 has the crank axle at the 5 o'clock position (gen 1) from simply turning the reel 180 degrees when viewing down from the top. It seems the only real difference is the star drag thread is LH.  Could swapping out the bridge to a RH thread for the star make this an after market conversion of a LH gen 1 to a righty?

[1badf350]

Hard to tell from the picture but the handle blade length  is 4.5" on the nose

[Deepennz]

Hi There,
I actually have 4 2nd gen, pre war 4/o's that show a logical progression of production from the 1st gen style.
Both my 1st gen 4/0's have internal drag  access, drilled spools, waffle clicker, etc. It would seem that the change to external drags occurred at the same time as the switch to the 2nd gen style - all my pre war, 2nd gen 4/0's have external drags. this is consistent with the switch to external drags that the 9/0's went thru at the same time.
I have 2 other drilled spool, coin edge c/w 4/o's with no yardage stamping, no hex clickers. these have to be late '1941 reels, because the last one in the progression is a 1942 reel I purchased off Ted - that "chunky" '42 style handle, coin edge c/w and a post replacing the hole in the spool arbour.   Thank you Ted!!!
This is a consistent pattern with the Senators - from the 4/o's to the 12/0's they all had drilled spools in 1941 and this was replaced in 1942 with the post.  As with all things Penn the exception is the 3/0 - my '42 3/0 has a drilled spool and the yardage stamp - 400 yds - as do all the others I have seen. This stamped reel foot is identical to that found on my early 1941 hex clicker etc 4/0 and Chris's reel above.
Clear as mud!!
Dom - I only collect Penn - that keeps me poor enough!! 

Cheers
Martin

[Deepennz]

Hi Chris,
I just checked - all my 4/0's have that same length handle - 41/2 inches - even my 3/0.
That plain counter weight seems to have been introduced in 1941 - its common on the seagates, Long beaches and Delmars. Perhaps a Penn employee rivetted one on a Senator handle because ....................... well - why not?
It's that hand made variability that I find quite appealing with Penn reels.
As you can see, I am well and truly down the rabbit hole!!
Martin