alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Drag cams and ramps??
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
August 25, 2019, 07:42:49 AM *
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Author Topic: Drag cams and ramps??  (Read 17771 times)
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Robert Janssen
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2015, 06:04:48 PM »

Like jaypeegee, I too have had trouble understanding what it is you are after. I'm not even sure why I am replying.

Quote
The complaint is simply there is 20-30+ degrees of drag lever travel from freespool to the first feeling of drag...

It seems to me, like your problem has nothing to do with the rise or curve of the cam, and will not be cured by filing or reshaping it.

Rather, it seems to me, that IF you are referring to the cam in your picture that has giant freespool notches (the other has no freespool notches at all, which is unusual) then the notches are simply far larger than the cam follower it engages with, which would give the slack you describe, even if 20-30 degrees seems a bit much. Not a big deal, just a design / engineering error. It is what it is.

But...
Quote
The complaint is simply there is 20-30+ degrees of drag lever travel from freespool to the first feeling of drag on the spool when the reel is preset to just barely noticeable loss of freespool setting at strike position.......


Well then, the preset is way, waaay too low.

Unless

there is something prohibiting the cam and the cam follower from remaining engaged all the way into the freespool setting. A spacing error, for example, or missing belleville, or again, a design / engineering error. Or a slack or too short drag spring in the reel; that'll do it too. I noticed the same thing in one of my Ambassadeur 30s just the other day-- someone had inadvertently placed a shim in the wrong spot, resulting in a bit of slack in the usually crisp lever action. No big deal; just rearrange it.

Have another look at it.

.



« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 06:08:08 PM by Robert Janssen » Logged
gstours
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2015, 07:25:08 PM »

Thanks again for the good info.  I am digesting it now.  I dont yet know what to do.   Thanks for the feedback.  Its food for me!
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gstours
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2015, 08:08:49 PM »

As several of you have commented on the cams pictured in the first part of the post and we need to find out what is important, I thought I should have mentioned that the cam with the huge notches between the hi and low parts of each side is from a normal operating Tiagra 16 which I could remove the parts to compare with my "problem" cam.
   Also you folks pointed to the fact the problem reel cam has no notch between like the tiagra cam with the notches.
Are the notches necessary Huh?   What do they do?  I,m thinking if they fit the cam and follower closer to the bearing and follower somehow!   But how?
  I do know the spool definitely jumps away slightly to the right side when the lever comes forward from freespool on the huge notched tiagra what seems to be normal function.
  On the problem reel there is no notch or detent between the low and hi parts on the side of the ramp of the cam.
This must be a clue to solving the problem.  But what function is the notch. Both sides of the parts that fit up next to it are flat.
   There is a pin on each side of the follower that the cam pushes the bearing but these fit in the grooves of the sideplate to keep this follower from turning, so the screw action of the drag knob can push more by spreading itself wider.
   Can anybody explain what the tiagra cam notches are for,  and how they work at the start up of the drag lever?
  Thanks again for your time, experience , and sharing information.
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2015, 08:31:36 PM »

The notches are not necessary, but will ensure there is a quick and positive transition into and out of freespool.  I believe the earliest Tiagras may not have had the notch in the cam, while subsequent models did, though this is a guess.  The cam assembly designs also differ both in terms of their being a notch in the bottom of the cam, and the design of the cam follower (some have steps that further separate the pin from the lip) on the Penn Internationals as well.  I prefer a gradual more linear cam ramp with the notch, and the stepped cam follower on the larger internationals.  I attached a picture of a few cams I had laying around (a Tiagra 50WLRS, a Tiagra 130, an International 50, and an International 130).  

Not sure if this helps?


* 20151130_182310.jpg (688.31 KB, 2048x1152 - viewed 316 times.)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 09:22:14 PM by Tightlines666 » Logged

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gstours
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2015, 09:05:49 PM »

Thanks mr Titelines for the last words and picture of the various cams that you did show.   I think we are soon to hit the problem on the head.  I bought this reel for a challenge and to see If I could learn some more but never thought I it would be this difficult to troubleshoot the problem or remedy.
   Tomorrow I will tear the sideplate apart and photograph the follower, cam, and a shot into the sideplate to show the grooves the follower slides in and etc.    Thanks for posting your reply.   This is what makes this free forum priceless!!!!!!!    g nite.
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gstours
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« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2015, 11:35:04 AM »

So the Saga Continues;  After digesting the replys I continued down the rocky path of removing the cam, follower, and pinion bearing that does an important job nesting in the sideplate  bore.  pictures below are my findings.

and so I pushed slightly on the square machined part of the cam and pushed it down.

here are the parts in question. as they were assembled.

this side view shows the fit, clearance and lack of notch as it was machined and assembled to fish.

This cardboard diagram shows the draglever positions that I spoke of earlier in my post.

This next pic is the reel at freespool position.

Next is the position at where there is slight loss of freespool (spool spins 3-5revs reluctantly)

 This seems excessive and undesirable to have this much movement where nothing is occurring in change for adding anything to compliment the drag cams ability s...... (my cheap thoughts)
and here is full drag,max and the lever touched the sideplate frame normally.  This functions normally no complaints.

Here is the two parts in serious question to me........ as you folks mentioned no notch.

  I want to learn more of how these lever reels work internally and your comments will be appreciated.
Dont be shy,  Ive been called crazy by waay to many people to stop now!   I do want to re-thank all who have helped by their comments,   Its all good,   and sorry this thing is so long bet its new evidence to prove I couldda bought a new?Huh?Huh?? and chucked this little gem.  gst.

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Robert Janssen
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2015, 01:30:02 AM »

Seriously, i think there is just a washer missing, or the preset just needs to be adjusted more. Crank the preset way down, see how that works. If not, throw a washer in there among the bellevilles to take up some space and see how that works.

AFTERTHOUGHT:

.


* camramp.PNG (558.58 KB, 676x572 - viewed 332 times.)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:30:15 PM by Robert Janssen » Logged
gstours
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2015, 04:33:02 PM »

Thanks Mr Jn for your advise in questioning the bellvilles and preset......
    Yes I have added spacer washers, rearranged the bellevilles. untill I lost freespool,  yes it increased the drag pressure on spool resistance to turning and made it less easy to move the lever to full.  BUT it did not change the freeplay of the lever described earlier.  NOR did loosing freespool buy cranking down on the preset knob affect the freeplay arc problem......
  I gotta have freespool (poor or +) to fish,   thats for sure!
      I do see where maybe the fullest part of the cam height may be touching the follower when in freespool,   possibly a notch and lesser cam height might be a suggestion?Huh?Huh??
    Any thoughts?      thanks!
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gstours
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2015, 08:25:26 AM »

After reviewing this and pondering even further i,m inclined to think firstly that a notch like similar cams may be a start to the remedy.
   This notch could be 1/2 the dia of the pin and possibly allow the two parts to close some if possible....

   Secondly trial and error testing would show if this is helpful......as the parts fit fairly close already , removing some material from the top (fullest part) would allow the lower part of the cam to close the gap. (so to speak)  as the pin may not fit down in the notch much to bring the parts togather..........These are my current thoughts......

  Thirdly the cam seems to have a sharper angle (total height) than others ive viewed and could afford to lose some height to be closer to the pictured tiagras profile.

   Thanks for everyones contributions to this challenge.   gst.
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2015, 05:52:54 PM »

More info and changes take place as shown;  weeks later,

Now we see the problem drag cam with a fer changes.  They are a notch for where the pins set when in freespool position.
and a slight amount removed from the 1/2 to full drag setting part of the ramp.  after some trial and refitting. its shown as is.

now we can see how the parts nest together when assembled after altering the ramp and notch to pin fit up.

After installing the altered parts into the reel again I was pleasantly surprised to start to see a noticeable change for the better Cry.  the freespool was acceptable after the drag at strike was set with the preset knob, and when the draglever was moved forward there was a typical bump, and moving  forwards now the drag started to slow the spool, and positive pressure began increasing at the lever was moved forward.
    A slight amount of drag was lost at full position as about .014 was removed from the top of the cam ramps.  This seemed to be needed though to net the cam down onto the pins as they now are about half seated on the pins.
    The belleville washers are in the factory configeration and some additional washers are planned to get 28-30 pounds is the plan.
So Everything is waay better now much experimenting, and trying to determiAne what to do seemed a little risky. 
   More testing is planned as soon as the bellevilles arrive so come back here later to learn what I found out. Cheesy
I would like to thank all the people who gave info, and ideas, and advise to help me to ''get lucky'' and make the correct adjustments.
  And kudos to this site for a place to collect our info and share the gifts we posess,    Thanks for all,   gst.
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2015, 06:08:14 PM »

Gary,
Looking good.  Alternatively you could have order one of the newer style cas (same part #) from Shimano.  Be aware the cam puns are slightly different as well.  Sone have nipples on the end, and others are the more typical rounded type you have pictured.  The nipple ones seem less likely to produce binding issues in the cam pocket grooves, and allow lubricant to work around them.  Though they may cause marring in the pockets more readily (just a guess).  I like what you'be done, and getting the belleville stack arrangement and spacing right, should give you the results you were looking for.  However, I am not sure the overall height of the cam needed to be reduced, this would only be the case if things are too tight with the preset backed all of the way off.  Otherwise the preset should take care of this.  If you don't have enough max with the preset, a pinion shim can he used.  Don't forget the clear (almost invisable) plastic washer under the can assembly when reasembling.  Ask me how I know?  The results are not good Sad
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gstours
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2017, 09:51:29 AM »

Its been awhile since this reel problem was solved.   Thanks again to all the contributions and comments.   Its all good.   Basicly the notch in between the cam pcs di have an effect of the drag lever freeplay.  I think the reel is quite normal now as its getting used a lot and is very nice in my opinion.   Heres an example.
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Dominick
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2017, 10:42:20 AM »

It looks like I have to come up and give harpoon lessons to Ken.  Roll Eyes He can give me bourbon lessons.  Cheesy Sounds like a fair trade.  Good job as usual.  I remember the secret spot.  Dominick
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 Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat all day drinking beer.
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2017, 11:45:25 AM »

   Yes,  Its part of the Fair Trade Act of Kindness, the way I remember it....Yor On.  I,m still training him the some of the Fine Arts!     Butt you fellas are kinda fakin it?   So another Lesson is Needed!!!! Wink
   The post has been kind to me.  I now wish I would have not used photobucket to post the photos as they show up as blanks.   Like many other peoples.   Thats what you get for free,   I,m still learning. Undecided
   Ken is a non paid baitboy and likes to sleep on the boat,  as you,ll see.   The china reel is now one of my favorite "little reels" as it goes thru the test periods.
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gstours
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2017, 12:06:19 PM »

   It was a super nice day out on the pond this day.  No wind and a seemingly great time to test my china reel again using the newly modified drag ramp.   Sure was workin good! Wink
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