alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Senator 9/0 Two Speed
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Author Topic: Senator 9/0 Two Speed  (Read 28668 times)
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Bryan Young
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2016, 03:28:59 AM »

Is it possible to get a brief, but more detailed explanation about automatic shifting " based on line load and how hard one cranks"? Thanks.
Gfish

Seems simple to me... increase the drag/load and the top main gear will stop spinning.. in essance 'shifting' into low.  Conversely, decrease the drag, and the high speed gear will grab the drive shaft.  Maybe?
I still cannot picture it. I must be missing something obvious.
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Cheesy I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. Cheesy
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2016, 12:35:55 PM »

Bryan, I figured it out last night. The transmission gears are fixed wrt one another. The main gears are not, but they operate under the same drag pressure. At low torque the lower, larger main gear drives both the pinion and the transmission gears. At higher torque the lower main gear slips, but the upper gear takes over, driving the transmission gear and the lower main gear, and thus the pinion. Hope that helps.

I stickied this topic! Great thread!

Sid
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 12:52:01 PM by sdlehr » Logged

Sid Lehr
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2016, 01:55:18 PM »

Bryan, I figured it out last night. The transmission gears are fixed wrt one another. The main gears are not, but they operate under the same drag pressure. At low torque the lower, larger main gear drives both the pinion and the transmission gears. At higher torque the lower main gear slips, but the upper gear takes over, driving the transmission gear and the lower main gear, and thus the pinion. Hope that helps.

I stickied this topic! Great thread!

Sid

That's it.

 Same drag pressure applied to both, but torque dictates which gear will drive the pinion.

Nice work Sid!

Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2016, 01:58:31 PM »

Thanks John. I wasn't going to sleep last night until I figured it out!


Sid
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Sid Lehr
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Bryan Young
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« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2016, 02:39:55 PM »

So the drag pressure for the high speed gear should have a lower drag resistance than the low gear drag
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Cheesy I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. Cheesy
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« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2016, 03:08:43 PM »

Using identical drag materials, the drag with the greater surface area will have the greater resistance. There are several variables in this equation, the drag pressure and the torques on the different gear ratios. It makes my head hurt.


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Sid Lehr
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« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2016, 04:43:18 PM »

This is where the truly imaginative mind of an engineer would come in handy?  I'd have to hold it in my hands and look at it while asking a million and twelve questions of the builder to grasp it fully.  I'm going to have to look at some schematics.  Another research project yay, maybe after I'm done upgrading my boat, finish with installing the wife's new doors, rebuild my spare coolers that have been on the floor in front of my workbench for three months.  Maybe next April?  Whatever inspired this, my hat is off to you for carrying it through to reality.  You must have been playing with the idea in your head for some time.
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2016, 07:11:32 PM »

Oh, I get it how it works now.... finally.  Still can't imagine how one would actually design and build it at home.  This is like the pinnacle of reel modifications.  Robert, we'll never be able to see inside your head but would you honor us with a quick snap shot of your milling workshop.
-steve
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2016, 10:14:17 PM »

There are glimpses of it here Steve....

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=5123.0

But would love to see a more complete view of Roberts shop for sure.
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Robert Janssen
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2016, 10:28:59 PM »

If it's mechanically cheaper to make the 2 speed auto shift...why aren't all two speeds done that way?
From a manufacturers perspective, I mean.

That is a pretty good question, really. It is kind of twofold.
Not all manufacturing is about frugality. A more expensive part may well be chosen over another less expensive alternative in the name of durability, simplicity, ease of manufacture or assembly, material... a number of reasons.

Or for that matter, market interest or perceived desirability in the resultant product. If the manufacturers thought we all wanted or needed automatics, then they would be.*

I suppose the question was prompted by my earlier comment about the comparative complexity of a manual gear shift. This may well be true, but primarily in the R&D and prototyping phase: Inventing the mechanism, designing and dimensioning the components, considering alternative embodiments in order to achieve goals of function and simplicity and so on. The subsequent actual manufacturing of the parts themselves is usually a much lesser issue.

Thinking and deciding is the hard part; making and doing is the easy part.

I also like to follow the design philosophy of the original designer or engineer. When designing an iron railing for a house for example, I choose to follow the aesthetics or architectural cues of the existant house or neighborhood rather than some wacky incongruous thing, malplaced in time or style.

(although, I sometimes do one-off parts and repairs for antiques and unique items that are difficult to define engineering-wise. I just eyeball those and shoot from the hip. No sense in trying to get all square-rooty about it)

Case in point, the Senator here happens to have a center distance between shafts and holes of precisely one inch. (Perhaps old man Henze didn't think I would notice, but I did.) How convenient; it allows the use of standard inch pitch gears. It also allows similar dimensions and tooth counts of the gears already involved, which reduces the number of tooling setups used. So, follow that.

And when designing a part, i like to I choose good friendly numbers like 2 and 16 and 5, not dumb numbers like 13 & 11/17ths. Make it simple and repeatable, for anyone anywhere. No wacky specialized threads or oddball proprietary ball bearings or other silliness.

Having said all that though, sometimes it is easier to just do it, rather than sit and design things. Sometimes you need to just make something, so you can see how you should've made it. Do it again and correct a few details on the way. Which is why the table in the pictures is littered with parts that were abandoned in the process.

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Robert, I don't see a notch in the pinion. How does it engage the spool?
It is probably just a dummy; a developmental prototype in the picture. The actual pinion used is slotted as usual.

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You must have been playing with the idea in your head for some time.
Not really. I've done this before. (or if as in the case of your coolers, or this reel kicking around the shop for years, then yes!! Or even closer to the truth, most of this was done in like, May... i just got around to posting it now)

Quote
would you honor us with a quick snap shot of your milling workshop.
It isn't much to see. I'm in the process of moving, and have downsized somewhat. I mean, I probably have more stuff than most guys have in the home shop, but not too much. A small lathe, a couple of mills, drill, TIG welder... the usual.

Incidentally, if anyone from one of the major manufacturers happens to be reading this, sure... by all means; drop a line. It would be fun to chat.

Gotta go make some stuff now. Later.

*giving great latitude to the effects of conservatism and traditionalism in the marketplace here. Sometimes it is very difficult to introduce anything new.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 10:35:23 PM by Robert Janssen » Logged
BryanC
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2016, 01:20:00 PM »

This is really impressive and I am floored that someone could do this in a home shop.  Excellent work!

I have to admit, I still don't understand how it works, even after this:

The transmission gears are fixed wrt one another. The main gears are not, but they operate under the same drag pressure. At low torque the lower, larger main gear drives both the pinion and the transmission gears. At higher torque the lower main gear slips, but the upper gear takes over, driving the transmission gear and the lower main gear, and thus the pinion.

I must still be missing a detail of some sort.  It seems to me if the transmission gears are fixed WRT each other, and they remain engaged with the main gears at all times, and each of the main gears has a drag system that creates resistance when it rotates relative to the gear sleeve, then one would be fighting the drag to some extent whenever the handle is turned.  The main gears would need to rotate relative to one another, so they could not both simply rotate at the speed of the gear sleeve.  Is there a one way clutch or ratchet mechanism somewhere in the system (on one of the main gears, or perhaps between the two transmission gears) that allows both main gears to rotate at shaft speed when they are not slipping, but engages when the high speed gear slips?
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2016, 10:06:14 PM »

Sensational work Doc - you're a true artisan.
Really enjoying the 'supplemental' discussion too.
This really is what Alan's site's all about.
Cheers, Justin
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« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 12:50:33 PM »

Hello Doc, I never get tired looking at your masterpiece here, thanks again for doing this  Smiley.
I have a question on your drag washers configuration. Have you tested your drag numbers? I know it isn't important, just a curiosity on my part.
http://alantani.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19277.0;attach=24914
I'm thinkin you are probably getting 18 to 20 lbs at max, but not really sure. could you let me know what you're getting?
Also, besides everything else you did, that star design looks amazing.
Did you come up with it, or did you copy it from somewhere?
Thank you Doc.

Sal

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« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 04:25:52 PM »

Wow! Love it!

I go away for a little while and come back to this, good stuff!!  Grin
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 05:52:33 PM »

Oh, hey, Sal.

Well, both yes and no... you're right; i didn't bother to check. For several reasons, i guess. One being that i wasn't terribly interested, another being that it didn't matter at the time since the plan is going to be the same anyway (make some space, fill with drag washers) so it is what it is, in the simplest way at the time.

I think the drag is adequate, and quite possibly more than 18 or 20 lbs. Bear in mind, that the actual final drag is the cumulative value of both drags together. That is, drag from gear 1 + drag from gear 2 = total drag. So, there are, as in the picture, currently eight drag washers.

However, as also can be seen in the pic, i took the opportunity to hex the gears in order to facilitate future wishes or needs. As it stands now, all stainless washers are 1 mm thick, with 0.5 mm carbontex, because it was easier that way. However, i have some hard 0.5 mm stainless i could use instead, and/or laminate with HT-100 fabric, thereby allowing several more washers if such need should arise.

Glad you like the star. It was just a temporary solution. I needed one, so i just made one from 5 or 6 mm brass. One of the tips is missing, but i figured, so what. It feels nice though.

  You know what is strange, though? I can't find the reel. I mean, i haven't really looked much, but i don't remember where i put it. I must have stashed it somewhere. How peculiar.

When i find it i will finish up some details and see how much drag and so on; get back to you on that.

.
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