alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Drag Fade
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2016, 08:41:14 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.

The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.

For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.
Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different

Well that reel got put to a test last night. After a 150yrd initial run at what I'm assuming was around 35lbs based on rod curve and later a 30-40yrd run locked down (not sure what lock down is, but it's a lot...) the side plate was hot. The handle was not as hot as before, maybe the new stainless handle with oversize grip helped dissipate that a little. I did lose drag after the runs. I can't tell you how much but after it cooled for a few minutes I was putting enough strain on my rod to question if it would hold up and backed off a little bit.

All in all it wasn't bad. The reel is a winch and I was able to get this 5ft giant reef Ray (round ribbon tail) back out of the sand after it sucked it's self down about 100yrds out at the end of the fight. I wish I had a buddy with me to video or get pics of the fight. That reel loads down my 80lb rod with ease.


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« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 08:41:53 AM by Lowprofile » Logged
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« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2016, 03:36:20 PM »


For an engineer,  simple = no fun  Smiley


When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design  (IMHO)  




Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect.  The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance.  We are talking about the drag washers.  The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers.  The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel.  The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple.  You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves.  This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers.  The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself.  Make sense?

I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.

Let me also give this dead horse one more whack, then I am going to move on too.  

With all due respect, we are are talking about system performance not just drag washers.

Sometimes when we are confident in our logic, we miss that the other person is making a different point.   That goes for me too  Smiley

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more, but we are probably boring everybody else at this point.

  

I have not been following this so it might have been brought up but we also have the gears to address, the spool goes around 5 times for every revolution of the main gear on a 5:1 star drag reel.   Spool diameter is also a factor.


To get accurate data we need to bench test eliminating as many variables as possable.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2016, 03:39:52 PM by Keta » Logged

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« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2016, 04:49:07 PM »


Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different

Well that reel got put to a test last night. After a 150yrd initial run at what I'm assuming was around 35lbs based on rod curve and later a 30-40yrd run locked down (not sure what lock down is, but it's a lot...) the side plate was hot. The handle was not as hot as before, maybe the new stainless handle with oversize grip helped dissipate that a little. I did lose drag after the runs. I can't tell you how much but after it cooled for a few minutes I was putting enough strain on my rod to question if it would hold up and backed off a little bit.

All in all it wasn't bad. The reel is a winch and I was able to get this 5ft giant reef Ray (round ribbon tail) back out of the sand after it sucked it's self down about 100yrds out at the end of the fight. I wish I had a buddy with me to video or get pics of the fight. That reel loads down my 80lb rod with ease.

Wow, that is a quite a catch.  Thanks for sharing!
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« Reply #108 on: December 26, 2016, 06:47:38 PM »

Those are tough fish.  Nice work.  Dominick
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« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2016, 07:28:19 AM »


For an engineer,  simple = no fun  Smiley


When we start talking about stuff like 400 yards at 30 lbs of drag, the amount of thermal energy generated is pretty impressive (enough to heat half a pound of stainless nearly 800 degrees F) - and probably not something we are going to hot rod into to in a star drag design  (IMHO)  




Respectfully, you're close but you're incorrect.  The drag force and distance of line is the reels performance.  We are talking about the drag washers.  The heat is generated by the friction at the surfaces of the drag washers.  The frictional force of one drag washers surface is not the same thing as the drag force of the entire fishing reel.  The frictional force at the surface of the drag washer moving with speed is the work that creates the heat, plain and simple.  You are confusing the performance of the entire drag and reel system, with the drag washers themselves.  This is why the drag forces of the reel can be altered by changing the number/size/orientation of the drag washers.  The drag washers are a subsystem of the reel, and are the heat generators not the reel itself.  Make sense?

I will stop beating this dead horse now, but understanding the difference between a frictional force at a drag washers surface and the total performance of the entire drag/reel system is crucial to making any changes.

Let me also give this dead horse one more whack, then I am going to move on too.  

With all due respect, we are are talking about system performance not just drag washers.

Sometimes when we are confident in our logic, we miss that the other person is making a different point.   That goes for me too  Smiley

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more, but we are probably boring everybody else at this point.

  

I have not been following this so it might have been brought up but we also have the gears to address, the spool goes around 5 times for every revolution of the main gear on a 5:1 star drag reel.   Spool diameter is also a factor.


To get accurate data we need to bench test eliminating as many variables as possable.

Hi Lee,

At the risk of kicking a dead horse that has already been beaten to death:

For a given final drag amount (force required at the point that the line goes off the spool)  the amount of energy converted from kinetic (motion) to thermal (heat), per unit of line taken is the same irregardless of spool size or gear ratio.  However these things do change the drag surface pressure and velocity  (AKA PV)  involved at a given setting and rate of line removal.   Drag material performance (mostly coefficient of friction)   can vary based on the PV in addition to having the coefficient of friction changing due to heat.  Different materials have different PV limits as well.
 
From the little that I have read on the topic,  it is difficult to accurately simulate heat transfer, especially when the machinery involved does not have very tight tolerances.  Field testing is recommended, even in the disclaimers in the simulation software I played with. 

 So no disagreements here.  I just think it is useful to make it clear that a specific amount of heat is going to show up for a specific amount of fish slowing force applied at the reel.   The drag system can be designed to work well in the presence of increasing heat up to some point  (typically the melting point of nearby greases and plastics), and after that the drag design has to involve the transfer of heat (conduction + convection and maybe radiation?).

Carbon fiber and stainless maintains a pretty steady coefficient of friction into high temperatures.  I looks like Adam is playing with drag disk materials that support higher temperatures before the resin that stiffens the carbon fiber fail.  I am curious to see if this will improve performance or if we are already at the point where the limiting factor is the inability of a star drag system to effectively transfer heat. 

-J.
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« Reply #110 on: December 27, 2016, 01:33:21 PM »

for brakes to work at their most efficient the parts have to heat up quickly. fishing reel "brakes" is entirely different because you don't want it to perform like a traditional brake e.g. production cars whether popular all the way to hiper cars and race cars. metallic and semi-metallic are used for daily drivers because these materials heat up faster hence brakes work almost as soon as you step on the pedal. with race cars the velocity of the cars and the pressure applied to the parts is so high the "exotic" materials used heat up so fast. if you are concerned about drag fade i suggest not to "lube" the washers. this will not totally eliminate drag fade because of the limitations of the materials used but it will be less. my 2 cents

disclaimer; i'm not an engineer just things i've learn over the years whether watching races on-road and off-road and know people who are professional racers mechanics wannabes like me  Cheesy Grin etc...

tight lines!

btw please correct me if i'm wrong. i still want to learn.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 01:37:03 PM by Potiguar - AKA MeL B » Logged
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« Reply #111 on: December 27, 2016, 02:09:25 PM »

My best experiance is with hydraulic cranes and winches but mechanical advantage is still mechanical advantage.  A load that over powers the winch brake with one part of line does not with multiple parts of line.  Heat is created by pressure and revelutions so the gear reduction should create less heat.  I do not know how to justify the heat for work though, we can not create matter and energy.  I need to set up my line winder and run some controled tests.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:10:01 PM by Keta » Logged

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« Reply #112 on: December 27, 2016, 02:34:04 PM »

I haven't read through the whole thread but I can tell you from catching multiple Marlin on senator 12/0's with greased carbon fibers drags that after the initial run, taking 300-400yrds of line with around 35lbs of drag, the entire reel heats up, grease from The drags, the gears and anywhere else you might put it comes pouring out from under the handle and there is virtually no useable drag at that point. I always pour cold, fresh water over the reel to cool it down and get it to a point a customer can start reeling but it takes awhile for the drags to cool and when they do the reel is now putting out over 50lbs of drag and it takes adjustment. This is where the old saying of "my reel seized up" came from. Burned up drags that's finally cooled and the drag, due to the lack of line in the spool, was 3-4 times what it started out as and the reels or like couldn't handle it.

The drag inserts that have come from this site are great, especially for the 4/0 size reel because we can beef them up, throw on 80lb line and lock it down to 30lbs of drag and stop a fish from getting into the reef. The grease helps it cool after short hard runs and everything works like it's supposed to.

For lighter lines or fish that will take 3-400 yards of line we need to look at wider surface areas for drags, not just overall and air cool systems.
Chris,
I built you the 12/0 with the insert for this same reason. I think the outcome would be different

Well that reel got put to a test last night. After a 150yrd initial run at what I'm assuming was around 35lbs based on rod curve and later a 30-40yrd run locked down (not sure what lock down is, but it's a lot...) the side plate was hot. The handle was not as hot as before, maybe the new stainless handle with oversize grip helped dissipate that a little. I did lose drag after the runs. I can't tell you how much but after it cooled for a few minutes I was putting enough strain on my rod to question if it would hold up and backed off a little bit.

All in all it wasn't bad. The reel is a winch and I was able to get this 5ft giant reef Ray (round ribbon tail) back out of the sand after it sucked it's self down about 100yrds out at the end of the fight. I wish I had a buddy with me to video or get pics of the fight. That reel loads down my 80lb rod with ease.
I'm Glad it held up for you. I'm a little concerned with it losing drag while hot. I would like to look at that insert if possible.
If the side plate was hot, You were definitely giving it a workout.
That reel has every upgrade available for a 12/0.
If you want to send it, I'll pay return shipping. Its up to you.
I can always send you some replacement drag washers if you think it needs it, and want to do it yourself.
I just want to see the insides, since I haven't been able to give mine a workout like that.
Daron
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« Reply #113 on: December 27, 2016, 03:38:44 PM »

good on you Daron, we never stop learning ay, your the man, cheers donnyboat.
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« Reply #114 on: December 27, 2016, 06:07:59 PM »

for brakes to work at their most efficient the parts have to heat up quickly. fishing reel "brakes" is entirely different because you don't want it to perform like a traditional brake e.g. production cars whether popular all the way to hiper cars and race cars. metallic and semi-metallic are used for daily drivers because these materials heat up faster hence brakes work almost as soon as you step on the pedal. with race cars the velocity of the cars and the pressure applied to the parts is so high the "exotic" materials used heat up so fast. if you are concerned about drag fade i suggest not to "lube" the washers. this will not totally eliminate drag fade because of the limitations of the materials used but it will be less. my 2 cents

disclaimer; i'm not an engineer just things i've learn over the years whether watching races on-road and off-road and know people who are professional racers mechanics wannabes like me  Cheesy Grin etc...

tight lines!

btw please correct me if i'm wrong. i still want to learn.

Hi Mel,

Learning myself as well.

Agree there is a difference between car brake vs reel drag requirements.   With a car, it is easy to use tactile and visual feedback to apply the desired amount of force at each moment.   With a reel drag, we are relying on a mostly fixed setting.  Also it is important to have as little differences possible between the static (stopped to moving)  and dynamic (in motion) coefficient of friction.  And we don't want the coefficient. Of friction to change dramatically.

According to Penn, dry carbon fiber fades.  I think at this point we don't know how much dry vs. greased fades at a given temp.  If I had to bet,  I would bet that greased might fade more, but there are so many benefits  to a greased drag, it would be hard to give it up.

My best experiance is with hydraulic cranes and winches but mechanical advantage is still mechanical advantage.  A load that over powers the winch brake with one part of line does not with multiple parts of line.  Heat is created by pressure and revelutions so the gear reduction should create less heat.  I do not know how to justify the heat for work though, we can not create matter and energy.  I need to set up my line winder and run some controled tests.

Not disagreeing with your observations, just the conclusions.  Apples and oranges.  Changing the crane gearing or leverage is probably changing the amount of friction  or time involved.  X amount of energy will be required to lift the object Y feet. Any heat showing up is probably additional applied energy converted by friction in the system.  So different  configurations will be more efficient than others.   In the reel case,  the friction is what we want. The goal  is to convert motion into heat.  No heat means  the fish is not taking line or we are in free spool. 

If you are successful in disproving the laws of thermodynamics that go all the way back to Newton,  you will probably be the first AT.com member to win the Nobel prize for physics.  Who cares about fishing reels. Grin.
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« Reply #115 on: December 27, 2016, 07:54:37 PM »

I understand "work" and energy and the law of conservation of mater and energy , I just do not understand why the gear reduction does not help.  
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 07:56:24 PM by Keta » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: December 27, 2016, 09:07:53 PM »

if velocity and pressure is constant and materials used are the same these things spool height gear size etc doesn't matter. my 2 cents...

some interesting reading;

https://quantumprogress.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/heat-and-the-work-done-by-friction/

http://www.mopar.ca/en/partsandaccessories/heat-and-brake-fade.html

tight lines!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 09:33:53 PM by Potiguar - AKA MeL B » Logged
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« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2016, 09:18:14 PM »

I think at this point we don't know how much dry vs. greased fades at a given temp


i'm waiting for Alan T.'s ungreased washers static drag test, effect of excessive friction heat on the reel's drag setting...
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« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2016, 09:38:49 PM »

if velocity and pressure is constant and materials used are the same these things spool height gear size etc doesn't matter. my 2 cents...


But spool height does, more inches per revelution meens a larger spool diameter will not spin as fast as a smaller one at the same speed.
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« Reply #119 on: December 27, 2016, 09:40:30 PM »

But spool height does, more inches per revelution meens a larger spool diameter will not spin as fast as a smaller one at the same speed.
on lever drag reels with carbon fiber on spool side, whether glued clipped etc, yes, my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 09:43:59 PM by Potiguar - AKA MeL B » Logged
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