alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Drag Fade
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
October 19, 2019, 04:42:45 PM *
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Author Topic: Drag Fade  (Read 28755 times)
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Rivverrat
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2016, 05:57:31 PM »

I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
 

Aluminum is a better conducter than SS so it probably won't help.
Lee, the stainless insert on the star drag would be for the sole purpose of longevity of the threads. Being that aluminum threads would not stand up as well long term on something being lossened & tightened repeatedly....Jeff
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2016, 06:09:06 PM »

I've wondered what affect an aluminum star with stainless, threaded insert would have if any on this heat issue. Could it be enough of a heat sink to help ?
 

Aluminum is a better conducter than SS so it probably won't help.

In case we are not all saying the same thing:  I think aluminum being a better conductor actually helps.  The heat will move into aluminum more quickly and will dissipate into the air (convection)  more quickly as well.     A stainless insert  would slow the conduction process down a bit.

Re. drag grease:  It looks to be a tradeoff between performance potential and real world conditions.   I would guess there would be less high speed drag fade and not too much of a static friction issue with a perfectly clean, uncontaminated  dry carbon fiber setup.   But reels are not used in laboratories...   The reason folks started using grease in the first place was too many sticky drags at inopportune times.      So  a lab guy at a reel manufacturer is probably not going to like drag grease as much as the fisherman on the deck of a long ranger.   Does this sound about right?

-J
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Ron Jones
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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2016, 06:13:20 PM »

Certainly,
I am starting to think that you can have more grease than needed to eliminate start up. That is what I mean by "settling down."
It is often that after a fish or two I find that I am tightening the star more to get the same drag, and then eventually that stops. I hypothesize that I am displacing unneeded grease. I don't really care what I am doing, Alan showed me how to set up my reels and it is working. I'm not about to go fixing it.  Cheesy
Ron
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Ronald Jones
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alantani
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2016, 06:52:55 PM »

extra grease squeezes out the sides and is taken out of play.  these washers are under ALOT of pressure.  for all we know, the carbon fiber material itself might "fade" when heated to high temps.  it might not be the teflon grease at all.  that's why i'm going to go through this in a systematic fashion, as soon as i get some spare time......   Grin
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Ron Jones
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2016, 06:57:25 PM »

Spare time, your retired! You have all the spare time in the world. Grin
Ron
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Ronald Jones
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Alto Mare
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2016, 07:53:08 PM »

First off, I do not have the equipment that the boss has, so, take this as you wish.
 I decided to do a little comparison with the 113H gears, using the HX gear set  and standard gear set.

As silly as this might be for some, I believe the test is a valid one, since I did the same for both.
I set the drag at 27 lbs., I wanted to go higher, but the standard eared gears can only be pushed at that. The HX still had more room to increase.
I hooked the line on a post and pulled the reed about 4' every second for 40 times. One crank of the handle brought me back to start, so it wasn't bad.
If you want to try it for yourself, make sure the line stays in the center of the spool.
Here are my results:

The 113H went up to 105 degrees and the standard 122 degrees.
The arrow on the reel points to the hottest spot, the star and handle nut only got up to 100 degrees on both.

I've been saying all along increasing drags as much as possible will make the reel much smooth at where it was intended to be fished at.
A smooth running drag doesn't heat  as much as  jerky drag.
We have some good upgrades here, I understand my test isn't the same as a fishing situation, but wouldn't be surprised if our 4/0's loaded with goodies would survive.

Sal
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2016, 07:58:07 PM »

That is a valid point, Sal. The HX gears have a lot of carbon and less metal. I hypothesize they make less heat and get rid of what they do generate quicker. The HX gears also have thinner side walls and I'd bet that goes a long way to promote cooling.
Ron
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2016, 08:12:54 PM »

I forgot to mention that the reel got a little easier to pull at mid point of the test, even though the star was still tight.
This confirms what the boss was saying.
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Rivverrat
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2016, 08:47:33 PM »

When doing different test on reels, last one for Tom's anti reverse when I was dropping 75 lbs. with at least 30 lbs. of drag to start from a pretty good height & throwing the lever forword engaging the reel & immediatly raisng the weight for another go in rapid succesion. Several times I had to stop to let the reel cool down. There were times I'd be very surprised if the 30 lbs. of drag had not diminished to less than 15 lbs....Jeff
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2016, 09:40:59 PM »

Jeff,
I have pointed you to the 114H from the get go.
This reel will bring up the biggest of Cats, and Decent sized sharks in stock form.
This reel is a transition from the smaller Senators to the Biggest.
A powerhouse in a compact package without upgrades other than a New Carbon fiber stack will yield results. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2016, 09:57:49 PM »

That is a valid point, Sal. The HX gears have a lot of carbon and less metal. I hypothesize they make less heat and get rid of what they do generate quicker. The HX gears also have thinner side walls and I'd bet that goes a long way to promote cooling.
Ron
Hi Ron, 

Just want to be bit more accurate here, but I do agree with your main point.

  The amount of heat generated ( or more accurately  transferred from motion to heat) is a result of load and time.  The materials and shapes involved do not affect the amount of work being done.

   In terms of shedding the heat quickly enough so that the drag performance in consistent, using materials and/or designs, that aid conduction ( heat passing though the part) and convection ( heat transferring out the part into the air) is the key.  Heat will follow the path of least resistance, so thin walls  on the main gear will help a star drag stack conduct the heat away more quickly.   

Not sure if more/ thinner washers help if the ratio of carbon to stainless stays the same.  Also, I could not find any data on heat conduction of carbon weave and drag grease.

-J
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2016, 10:01:16 PM »

Daron, I'm completely set up for cat reels. I have what I think are the best reels for the money for 20 30 50 60 & 80 lb. line. 3 combos for each of these line classes for catfish.  
This reel would be for sharks. I'm looking for small to midsize shark reels....Jeff
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2016, 10:39:12 PM »

Just trying to help my Man. Wink
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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2016, 11:16:37 PM »

That is a valid point, Sal. The HX gears have a lot of carbon and less metal. I hypothesize they make less heat and get rid of what they do generate quicker. The HX gears also have thinner side walls and I'd bet that goes a long way to promote cooling.
Ron
Hi Ron, 

Just want to be bit more accurate here, but I do agree with your main point.

  The amount of heat generated ( or more accurately  transferred from motion to heat) is a result of load and time.  The materials and shapes involved do not affect the amount of work being done.

   In terms of shedding the heat quickly enough so that the drag performance in consistent, using materials and/or designs, that aid conduction ( heat passing though the part) and convection ( heat transferring out the part into the air) is the key.  Heat will follow the path of least resistance, so thin walls  on the main gear will help a star drag stack conduct the heat away more quickly.   

Not sure if more/ thinner washers help if the ratio of carbon to stainless stays the same.  Also, I could not find any data on heat conduction of carbon weave and drag grease.

-J

I think we are saying the same thing. The HX gears have half as many metal disks per carbon disk. I don't know the numbers, but I know that CF takes longer to increase in temperature while transferring motion into heat, that is one reason why it is used in racing brake pads. What I was getting at is that a 5 CF disk HX system would require a 9 or 10 or 11 stack (however you look at it) conventional drag stack with a bunch more metal and all that metal would hold a whole lot of excess energy in the form of heat.

I hope that makes sense.
Ron
Ron
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Ronald Jones
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Bryan Young
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2016, 11:19:22 PM »

Thermodynamics has never been my strength.
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Cheesy I talk with every part I send out and each reel I repair so that they perform at the top of their game. Cheesy
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