alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Spin rod Guides Question
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Author Topic: Spin rod Guides Question  (Read 3782 times)
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gstours
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« on: October 21, 2018, 08:14:35 AM »

   As a winter project I want to replace the guides on a a pretty good spin rod and wondered if I can get some advice here before I order some parts for other rod repairs.    But there's more room for improvement,   and I got time to make some changes.
  Typically the first guide is too small and general I move it forward as much as possible. on a 2 pc rod.
      Are the "Tidalwave",  "Airwave, Microwave" type guides worthwhile as they use a different line control concept?  What is your opinions out there?   The first guide theory seems to be in controlling the coils coming off the spool, and reducing line slap.   The running guides idea is much like a casting type rod from there up to the tip.  (20mm and 6mm combo guide as the stripper, then 5-6mm guides to the tip)
   Any info from your experiences would be appreciated.  I know some of you have experimented a lot with guide sizes and placement.
  Thanks for chiming in.  Keep you line tight. Wink
 
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philaroman
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« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2018, 10:11:00 AM »

1) always thought this made sense, not only for buying off the rack, but also for builders' guide selection/spacing:
http://anglersresource.net/WhattoLookforinaTopShelfSpinningRod.aspx
...esp., the part about matching a reel w/ correct spool shaft angle & diameter at lip

2) moving a too-small stripper forward may help, but not as good as a replacement w/ bigger ring farther from the blank (provided it lines up w/ subsequent reduction guides)

3) 20mm stripper sounds way too small, unless it's a L/UL for a small spinner
(or, convenient tube storage is more important than casting distance)
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2018, 10:56:38 AM »

You have probably seen this Gary:
http://anglersresource.net/Blog/tabid/627/entryid/9/BUILDING-THE-KR-CONCEPT-SPINNING-ROD.aspx

Old reels are canted differently from newer reels.

They are getting away from the very large striper guides saying it is more important to get the line under control early so it is slapping fewer guides as it moves toward the tip.

-steve
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Jeri
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2018, 10:51:21 PM »

Been doing a lot of work involving the Fuji KR Concept both on shorter spinning rods, and very long surf rods for spinning reels; the result is that when you get it right it is awesome. Both in distance improvement and power available in the blank. On some of our very long surf rods, where we have used an adaptation of the KR Concept, we have seen a 10% improvement in distance attainable of the same blank with more traditional guide systems.

To the point now, where we are pretty much not building traditional guide systems, unless the client absolutely insists.

Hope that helps.

Cheers from sunny Africa
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gstours
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2018, 09:21:15 AM »

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and links,  thereís more going on in the proper layout than I was aware of,  even the reel spools angle can effect the performance.  Never thought of this?   Iíve got a lot to learn.💁‍♂️🐠
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gstours
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 09:01:52 AM »

  Before consulting you folks I had thought of some of these variables.  I even thought of reducing the amount of guides to prevent friction and line slap ,  butt Fuji research showed just the opposite thinking ,   for casting rods the more the merrier it seems,  butt spinners are a different animal.... The testing, diagrams and pictures Fuji showed will help to show me the way. 
   Is it fair to say that mounting the reel on the rod and using a square across the spool face will point you the rod builder to where the first choke guide should be?   Generally it seems there are 2-3 "choke reduction " guides and maybe try to line the centerline if the reel face to the center guide?    Just wondering?   My thinking was to use really large guides here,  like 25-30mm on a 9 ft rod then small 6-7mm guides to the tip,  Butt it seems like you want to control the line mostly at the first guide (choke point?)  from reading the Fuji theorys and research.
   Secondly there needs to be a standard test used for casting distance efficiency for my work it seems?
Thirdly it seems obvious that the low rider guides are the best choice for reducing line slap and then small runner guides to smooth the flow and distribute the power and reduce torque when the rod is loaded with the prize.    I,m going to do something,  just mot sure what yet. Wink
     Thanks for the Fuji link too.  Thats been a eye opener in theorys.   Where do yoou reccomend buying the KR Concept guides.  Are they marked as another product??  Thanks for any replys. Cool   
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Jeri
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« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 09:05:24 PM »

On the Angler's Resource site there is an awful lot of information on the KR Concept, as well as a plug in guide for spacings for particular rods. Their concept seems to work groups of ring sizes based on line weight/strength/size, so you very much need to determine your final usage scheme for the rod before you start building.


There are also some 'standard recipes' for complete rods on the Fuji Japan site, though the language option is not available, the spacings are in cms. These are a very good 'starting point', we used some of these to develop our own spacing for very long surf rods, but once you get a fuller understanding of what the scheme is aiming at, you can adapt.

Low Riders are more designed for long surf rods, rather than shorter spinning  rods, but the concept of using small ringed guides, positioned high away from the blank is very similar to the KR Concept.

Hope that helps.
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droppedit
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2018, 03:29:32 PM »

Gary, this might help for finding the guides http://www.anglersworkshop.com/K-Series and I found this video very informative, but you've probably found it by now.
 Hope your project works out for you.


Dave



« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 03:30:47 PM by droppedit » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2018, 04:04:59 PM »

Gary regarding the airwave type guides with the smaller center insert. If these are laid out right I believe they can be a benefit. Are they any better than the Fugi KR Jeri describes ? I dont think so. With the Fugi I believe your getting a better over all quality guide.

Most all guide spacing charts offered are.... just a sec.... let me pull up a bit of my diplomatic nature.... just crap !  

At best they are a generic guide. Dont know what rod you have but if it's factory wrapped rod I can almost guarantee the guide spacing isn't the best fort it's full rang of use. "YOU" taking your time & using tape, surgical tubing etc. & loading the rod making adjustments to the guides achieving  a better guide lay out that will cause the rod to react much better with a fish on than the factory job... Jeff    

« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 03:08:24 AM by Rivverrat » Logged
gstours
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2018, 07:48:14 AM »

Thanks for more information,  Iím learning more about this everyday, nice never seen the Fiji kr video from the anglers workshop,  Iíve bought a lot of stuff from them, butt never got really that involved with spinning rods.   Thanks 🙏 again.    You folks are very friendly.🎣
    I will post some of my findings soon. 


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Newell Nut
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2018, 01:59:50 PM »

Your current layout there shows you need to start with a taller guide as you can see. Most of mine will start around 26" from the end of the reel seat on most spinners. Usually use 7 guides for a seven footer and 8 for an 8 footer on spinners.

Dwight
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oldmanjoe
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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 02:59:23 PM »

 Smiley   All i can add is that you tape the guides on first .  load test the rod to get  an idea on proper guide placement .  I like one extra guide per foot , 8 on 7 foot.
   Stripper guide for me depends on braid verses mono , braid i use a smaller stripper .     Test cast and watch the line , it is amazing how moving some guides make a big difference .       Roll Eyes Roll Eyes   Some sticks just like a lot  of guides , 9 guides including tip top in 40 inches  7 foot overall.


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oldmanjoe
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2018, 06:10:52 PM »

     I just got finished tapping these guides on for a spinner set up  .   8 foot stick  same size tip top as the 7 footer ,yet it only took 7 guides including the tip top.
  Loads up nice for line lay  , Smallish 25 mm stripper . I will do some test casting in the next day or so. With braid and mono spool also with a 2 inch and a 2 and 3/4 spool diameter.


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Grandpa`s word of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
gstours
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« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2018, 10:27:49 PM »

 My photo of the rod reel n straight edge is a penn 4500 that has never casted well, I like the reel butt,  others Iíve got cast waay better?  After the axis straight edge test it shows to me that the reel frame, and spool are aimed too low, causing line friction.  If it was pointed at the center of the first guide this would be demiinished.  Thatís a start point.   Soon Iíll show measurements of other reels.   Just saying.🎣
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Cor
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« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2018, 11:13:10 PM »

Instinctively most of us want to believe that guide placement will make a huge difference to the castÖ.Iíve never been able to prove that to myself and am sceptical about a lot of the theories.   I donít use spinning reels, but having watched guys sometimes battling with windknots and some casting further then others with similar rods and do think that with spinning tackle guides placement for casting may be more important, but then so seems to be the amount of line and type of line on the reel.

I always tape my guides to the blank, then load the rod to see how the line flows over the blank like oldmanjoe suggests.   In that way you can get perfect alignment of the number, height and size of guides required.   I even go and cast with the rod with taped guides.

When casting with old braid (on bait caster) I can feel the wind resistance created by the wooliness of the braid and think I would feel it if some guides cause a resistance to the line flow?

Regardless, this all makes for very interesting reading and thought!

AFTERTHOUGHT
I my youth most guys used 7 guides plus tip on a rodÖperiod!

Then some said casting is more important then pulling fish, as we make 500 casts for every 1 fish caught, so what if the line goes next to the blank when you have a strong fish on.

Then the next statement was guides obviously cause resistance to the line, so we rather reduce the number of guides to 6 or even 5 and obtain a better cast?

Did this in any way improve casting ease or distance?    Not that Iím aware of but I never participated in that.    One guy used 6 guides till the day he died where others always had 7 or 8.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 11:25:21 PM by Cor » Logged

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