Spin rod Guides Question

Started by gstours, October 21, 2018, 04:14:35 PM

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gstours

This is a possible clue, and improvement in spin rod design?
https://www.guidesnblanks.com/page/fuji_catalogue    Butt we only talk about the rod here.  Ive found out the reels can be quite varied asto the axis of the spool line angle in relationship to the reel foot in reel design.   More on this as I get the pictures.
   Maybe I,m over thinking the variables as I get older?   When I was a young buck I,d just grab whatever seemed to have the right line on it and just go fishing,  Knowledge can be a possible frustration , there are many (endless) variables,  butt its my life to learn and try to improve things that I can control.   I cant wait to build another rod with changes butt its goinna be taped on guides and tested in the yard first.
   This is a learning thing for me as I never got really into spin reels nor rods,  but this is a new adventure.
   

gstours

Another discovery is shown before, it's a very good little working rod butt notice the axis if the spool doesn't make a straight line to rhe center of the guide.   Some other rod reel combinations are worse in this starting point of the cast.

philaroman

actually, that one isn't bad...  I think you're supposed to aim closer to the top from dead-center -- otherwise, there's no good place for next reduction guide

gstours

Thanks, this is the first time I've gotten that interested in the rods improvement in design.🎣
   This is another factory rod, and the reel that was mounted on it.  Notice the reels still pointing down it seems?🤦‍♀️

gstours

Below is a view of the comparable first guide.  The straight edge is 2 inches wide for a visual note. 

gstours

Seems like a very tall guide would be needed?  It ant be placed much farther up butt if the reel was shooting line up a little bit more it seems like the angle would improve things down the line.

oldmanjoe

 As i look at your pictures and see that you are taping the reel on the rod, you can also shim the reel for more canter .   point it down more for some testing..
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

oldmanjoe

  My straight edge won`t hit the tip top .  Center line is about 1 inch below the tip .
Test cast mono and had a little line slap , move the stripper a little closer and the slap was worse ,note that is were the extra tape band is.
 Braid line  , very little slap and 10-12 yards further casts .

Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

happyhooker

#23
This is one of the more interesting series of posts I've read in awhile.

I am not an expert in rod building, nor the subtopic of guide placement in spinning rods.  Have studied quite a few of the guide placement "theories", ranging from the "old" "original" cone of flight ideas, to the New Guide Concept (NGC), Fuji's KR, Kirkman's 27X and so forth.  I do not build commercially, but like to tinker & have built/rebuilt some rods for personal use.  A few takeaways:

1) You can overthink the guide placement stuff.  If you're a big company building a ton of rods, then maybe you can justify dumping a lot of time and money into the thing, but for the average angler who just wants a good performing fishing outfit, KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

2) There are too many variables that can get worked into the mix.  Ideally, you would build one blank, using it for only one reel, using only one type/brand and size of line and building with one type of guide.  Two blanks may measure out the same and even have the same material (graphite, fiberglass, etc.) but they may not "act" the same.  Reels have different weights, spool lip diameters, spool angles. etc., and using different reels on the same rod will provide a different experience.  Line too, and it's not just braid vs. mono, but limp mono vs stiff mono, for example, and a rod will act differently with different line test weights.  Guides are more than ring diameter; frame type, guide height and so forth, all enter into the calculations.

3)  I have no experience with the so-called "Microwave" guides.  Would speculate they are just a different way to implement the "modern" theory of smaller stripper guides to get the line coils "under control" sooner, rather than like in the old days of gradually reducing the ring diameters as you went out toward the tip of the rod.

4) The higher guides probably implement the modern theory of getting the line under control sooner, but I don't like the fact that rods built with them are hard to pack.

5) I question how much spool angle really enters into things.  Some reels have angles that are such that most of your guides will end up being "ideally" placed somewhere off the tip off the rod.

6) Multi-piece blanks can tie you in knots, trying to avoid placing guides right in the middle of ferrules.

7) Most of the guide placement theories will tell you that they are only providing starting points, and that you need to experiment with each build, moving guides around to get the feel you want.

8) I tend to use 27x (spool lip diameter multiplied by 27) to find a rough starting point for the choker guide, use 3 reduction guides (the stripper and immediately following 2 guides) or maybe 2 in a shorter rod, then enough small running guides from the choker out to the tip to give you one guide every 5 inches or so.  The reduction guides can be placed (and the height of them selected) so the outer edge of the ring follows an imaginary line that would run from the center of the spool out to the outer edge of the choker guide (disregard spool angle).  Tape the guides on, test cast, and modify as necessary to avoid line slap on the blank and maximize casting distance.

9) I select the reel I'm mostly likely to use with that rod for purposes of the guide placement, but it doesn't bother me to use different reels afterwards, especially if the spool diameter is the same or slightly smaller than the first reel.

10) Someday, I may spend a week or something with a box full of guides and experiment to my heart's content to build the best performing rod I can.  For now, I'm content to get a better-than-average rod out of what I do, feeling confident that it's a good performer even if I haven't gotten that last 1% out of it.  It's not "good enough is good enough", but it is getting a really good rod that I'll enjoy fishing with without burning up a ton of time for some minuscule gains that I'm not likely to notice very often.

Frank

gstours

Thanks Frank,,,  you gave me ten of your thoughts.  For that I'm giving you twenty points.🚣🎣🎣.
   I'm not trying to be a finatic,  just trying to understand the basic things no body would ever tell you when you go to buy a rod or reel.   In general you're going to get a average set up.  Sometimes less. 
   I've built a few rods and used my best advice,  technology has improved,  I,m an antique.
   I would like to see other people here and any where else make educated choices,  as the cost of equipment escalation and spare time for fishing seems to diminish.   I just wanna be a kid 🧒 again.

Rivverrat

A lot of stuff regarding rod building I think is really made harder than it ought to be sometimes...Jeff  

Cor

Quote from: Rivverrat on October 28, 2018, 03:35:06 AM
A lot of stuff regarding rod building I think is really made harder than it ought to be sometimes...Jeff   
We like to over think this stuff in an attempt to get our equipment unique or better then other.   I also often think there are business interests behind a lot of this type of "innovation"    That is why I tend to be sceptical, yet I still enjoy reading all the theories and wondering about it.    I have learnt something in this thread about line slap and lining up a spinning reel to the first choke guide.

Youngsters sometimes come to me and show me a new type of (expensive) guide and ask my opinion on if it will provide the benefit they have been told it will and usually I don't see it, but now I can talk to them about it more knowledgeably. ;D ;D

I was wondering, if lining up the reel to the guides is so important, why not try to make some modification to the reel seat, we're not talking about inches here?   Using a slightly oversized reel seat it could possibly be sloped slightly to obtain a better alignment and place the guide at the correct spot to obtain good line flow?

Here is something somewhat unique in my book.   Not the reel seat that was modified but the but section to accommodate a youngsters small hands to reach to the top of a Pen 49 to be able to brake the cast with his thumb.    This belongs to an 75 years old mate of mine who is the "Youngster" for who it was made by his Dad when he was 11 years old.

Cornelis

wfjord

#27
I, too, have built and rebuilt a few rods over the past 35 years.  I utilized good blanks and want to rebuild at least some of the spinning rods I made, if not all. Like some of you, I've been studying the NG & KR concepts to try to get a better understanding of what I want to do, but I'm still in the thinking process.

Rivverrat

#28
Cor,   Nice to see where some one does something very different but for a specific purpose... Jeff

Jeri

A short story, so grab a cup of coffee or something similar.

We had a need to develop a light surf spinning rod for use with either lures or sinkers & bait, in the range of 2-3oz casting weight, and having found a very nice but powerful blank we set about sorting set of guides for the rod. First up was a set of traditional single leg guides in a very traditional Cone of Flight layout - using BYAG starting with a size 30. Built tested, and found that the rod cast reasonably well, but occasional wind knots and only about 80-90 metres with a 3oz sinker. Next up was the more recent K series guides used in a Cone of Flight style - casting 'feel' improved, distance slightly improved and we could feel the guides correcting the wind knots - so losses in performance as the corrections were taking place. We next stayed with the K series guides, but applied the NGC principles, and seriously got bogged down with the straight edge or x27 ideas, and then tested - slight improvement in distance, still the guides were doing the correction operation, but distances were going up, so we felt we were on the right path.

Bearing in mind that this was a 12' surf blank, we next used part of our standard 14'-15' surf rod design with a couple of Low Riders, starting with a size 16, then a 12 and 10, followed by a series of single leg fly rod guides, LAG 10 and LAG 8. With this rod we also pushed the position of the first low rider well up the rod, based on our experiences with longer surf rods and these guides. Testing was a dream, the distance suddenly jumped right up to 120 metres with a  3oz sinker, and the line flow through the cast was nearly silent - no noise from the braid as it passed over/through the guides. The 'feel' of the rod had also been transformed to a much more responsive action, and very smooth. Absolutely no wind knots, and a feeling that the guides were making the blank come alive. We felt we had finally found a scheme of guides that worked exceptionally well, and with a little minor fine tuning, we then went on to build and sell these very popular rods through our custom rods shop.


Having found a successful formula, for a long time we just left it alone, but there was beginning to be a lot of information about the new KR Concept, so we took the same blank and did some experimenting. Again by pushing the first guide, and the subsequent 2 reduction guides well up the blank, then running a full set of BKAT 6 guides to the tip, at a slightly more open spacing than Fuji recommended, we had used the Fuji recommended set of 20H, 10H & 6M for the line weight/strength that we were using. We then tested the rod, and suddenly found a huge increase in the distance the rod was casting, possibly 10% further than our earlier design guide sets, which were pretty awesome - we were now dropping a 3oz sinker at about 140 metres with just a simple 4000 reel and 25lb braid, with a 50lb braid casting leader - certainly not bad performance.

Subsequent to this final revelation about guide sets and design styles, we had an inquiry from a guy living in the north of Namibia, spinning from the shores of the Zambezi and Okavango (both wide rivers), spinning for Tigerfish, but he was struggling to find a rod to give him distance for his lures. We took the 12' surf spinning blank, cut 3' off the bottom, and used a slightly modified set of out KR guides and then invited him to test cast - even in 9' format with either 2oz or 3oz lures, he was casting just over 100 metres, certainly more than the Okavango is wide - huge success and smiling faces.

The point here, is that the more advanced design systems that Fuji have developed are a huge benefit to rod design, they offer a very large move away from all the traditional thinking with amazing result for getting super effective fishing tools. A lot of how we developed our guide spacing designs has been done with just taping guides on a blank, and then testing and re-testing. The original Fuji suggestions have been noted, but in most cases we still end up finding more performance by pushing up the distance between the reel and the first guide, to the point on some of our long 15' surf rods for spinning reel and braid, we are now positioning the first guide at over 6' away, and still getting increases in performance, as we slowly test further.


Hope this adds some direction to some folks thoughts on the KR Concept, as it truly is an amazing concept - to use small ring guides on tall frames to very quickly compress the coils coming off the spinning reel, and then quickly transition those now much smaller coils into direct straight running line over the upper third of a spinning rod.

Cheers from sunny Africa.