Collecting B-Grade Spinning Reels

[Paul Roberts]

Well done, Paul, nice evaluation.

The A&F Monogram 200 Six is actually the same reel as the Langley and Zebco Spin deLuxe 830s. The Zebco Spinlite 850 is an ultralight and the A&F Monogram 150 Three is an ultralight (the same as the Zebco 850).

Oh yes, thanks for the correction, Tom. I had 850 on the brain bc I was looking into them. I decided not to bite before I saw how this 200 Six/830 pans out.

[Paul Roberts]

OK... last one, then I'll give this thread a rest. I posted this in the Roddy section, thinking I'd delete it here. But since there are comments, I'll leave it.

Roddy 910

I wasn't going to write this one up, but it's got an interesting gear package and it brings up the question as to where B-grade ends and A-grade's begin. The Roddy 910 looks like a typical 60's-70's non-skirted, deep rotor cup, B-grade reel. This one's far from new, obviously having been well used. It came in neglected and I did my best to clean, burnish, and lube appropriately.

In action, it feels smooth. However, it has some B-grade clunking going on. So I checked the most likely places for slop: the handle, rotor, main shaft, and spool. The rotor was tight, with little movement. The main shaft had only a little axial motion, and almost no lateral movement despite the apparently cheap ball bearing. The spool and the handle were where the issues were. There was excessive lateral play in the spool due to a poor fit to the shaft. Play in the handle felt like excessive movement between gear teeth. I could even feel a (minor) skip between teeth. Whether much of this looseness and noise is due to native tolerances or wear I do not know. Would need a new reel to tell.

Tear down was a bit more complicated in this reel. First off, the rotor nut was so tight, on top of a big external-star lock-washer, that I couldn't budge it with the tools I had (I'm working at a makeshift workspace lately) and was stumped. Went rummaging in the garage at the place I've been staying (wife's family) and found a breaker bar with a fixed socket, and it fit! What are the chances?! The nut walked right off. The little "main gear" appeared to be permanently fixed to the handle shaft via a pin driven between the gear and shaft, and I could not remove it. All I could do was flush the handle shaft with solvent (mineral spirits) and then flood it with oil. There is an oiling port too.

The schematic/parts list is poorly put together. It does not show parts in order of installation, nor does it show all the parts! The connector where the handle and main gear shaft connect (via a DAM Quick like pin that must be pounded out) is missing from the schematic. These were the very parts I could not remove. Possibly, these parts are permanently installed?

Internally, the reel is "all metal" and sports a worm-gear drive train. It appears that there was an attempt here at making a durable spinning reel up to the rigors of saltwater fishing. The most expensive part listed in the factory parts list is the pinion shaft. And by quite a bit. It's been cut from a solid chunk of stainless steel. The main shaft is steel. One of the drive gears sits on a robust steel post. I checked parts with a strong magnet; Steel being one of the, if not the only, magnetic metals used in reels.

Also robust is the AR mechanism, and for good reason in a saltwater reel. The AR bar is steel and is further supported by a raised block integral with the reel body, protecting the bar from bending. The AR ratchet appears to be steel as well.

There is a single large ball bearing set under the rotor. It's a Nachi 629, a common and cheap bearing today. I'd read that at least one of these 910's was found to contain a German bearing. It seems most likely to me that the German bearing was a replacement, the Nachi original. I packed this rather loose Nachi with Yamalube.

The gear package is an interesting, if complicated, design. It's a combination of worm-gear and spur gears. The rotor is worm-gear driven, but unlike most worm gear drive trains, the input drive mechanism is a set of three gears: a surprisingly small "main gear" (attached to the handle), a larger "middle gear" -the one that meshes with the worm gear. This "middle gear" is proportionally small in diameter against the worm (compared with a DAM drive) so one would assume the gear ratio would be very low. But this drive mechanism involves three gears (!) that apparently multiply output? The realized gear ratio comes in at 3.5:1.

Again, the pinion is steel, but all the gears (4 of them) are aluminum. I can only assume the aluminum is to counter the weight, and cost, of all that steel. The middle gear has a steel hub, however, that acts as a bearing mounted against the stout steel post it rides on. The small "drive gear" does double duty, also driving the oscillation mechanism via an aluminum spur gear. The oscillation block itself is of cast metal, the oscillation cog is bronze. There is also a bronze bar that secures the oscillation block on the side opposite the bronze cog creating what appears to be a pretty solid arrangement.

In all there are 5 gears in this reel. My past experience with later Mitchell 300's has made me wary of reels with too many gears; Too many moving parts to wear, especially if they are of poor material quality. The steel parts may be the foundation of this Roddy 910, but all the aluminum gears have me flashing back to the (albeit later model) Mitchell 300's I'd toasted, far too quickly. Perhaps this accounts for the play I feel in this Roddy? In this case, there are two gear meshes, instead of one, between the handle and the rotor.

The body scrubbed up well with dish soap and a toothbrush. I suppose I can thank the "corrosion proof anodized finish" touted on a sticker on the rotor that a number of the Japanese reels sported. (I scraped the remnants of the worn sticker off and cleaned it up with Goo-Gone.) The badges were missing from the side-plate, which seems to be common with these reels. This Roddy is now... as good as it's going to get without replacement parts, and some creative tolerance abatement. As is, it's got more fishing time left in it.

[oc1]

It's about materials, the precision to which they are milled or cast, alignment,  and stuff like that.

[Gfish]

I'd be tempted to give it an A, but Of course I don't have the reel in-hand. With the Aluminum gear, to me anyway, it could still be an A, given the design and other materials. The MG 300, etc. for example,  are A's to me. "A" subjective judgement, indeed. Sounds like it's a heavy for it's size spinner. Me like! Great write-up and pictures.

[Paul Roberts]

Hey, Greg. Thanks. Yeah, this rating thing is pretty subjective. I think mo65's "B-movie" is a fun way to look at it.

I guess the subjectivity is what's intrigued me. Been on a tear here learning about reels and trying to put some objectivity to it. That's just the way my mind works.

I really dunno what to make of ​all the "extra" gearing (compared to the more standard worm gear mechs), nor how durable aluminum might be able to be. The engineering put into all those reels out there is interesting. Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat. And a lot of cats out there to skin, considering the whole range of fishing, from chubs to... marlin, tuna, and sharks. I mention chubs bc I, as a kid, used to hand-line chubs in a local creek, using no reel at all. Things got more complicated from there though!

[foakes]

Good tutorial and explanations, Paul!

Like you, I know that these reels are built pretty tough.

The problem points to consider would be materials & non-parts availability.

Mating aluminum gears (or even a softer alloy) with a SS worm drive — is the first red flag.

The main and secondary gears should be either a hard alloy at the least — or machined bronze at the best.

This will make a longer-lasting, as well as a smoother operating spinner.

Steel on steel would be no good — no chance for the main to play well with the worm.  They fight each other.

Too many secondary gears are another issue.

And then there is the inherent heritage of the Roddy's to skimp on key pressure points in regards to the frame, foot stem, and some built in features that if a nub is busted off — means you will call it a day way too early.

A solid "B" reel, IMO.

Thanks for showing us!

Best, Fred

[Paul Roberts]

I think you pretty much nailed the main points/flags to consider, Fred. I'm relatively new to considering these things with any rigor, hence my equivocating language. A set of aluminum gears, with all those mesh points, certainly seemed like a flag to me. And I can feel this in the handle; Too much play has developed there.

[Midway Tommy]

Grading the quality of a spinning reel is clearly subjective. As the old saying goes "It's all in the eyes of the beholder". One should add "and mind" in this instance. Some want smoothness & quietness while others, like me, appreciate that aspect but are willing to give a little there for simplicity, stoutness, quality drag, strong anti-reverse, low maintenance and trouble free usage. Parts availability may be a small concern but parts usually can be found or made for most quality spinning reels. With regards to smoothness, I could care less about how many times the handle rotates freely with a flick of it as long as it's not binding up. Free spinning, or spooling as it's called in casting reels, has no relevance in spinning reels other than to try to convince the novice that they have a quality reel, which in most cases they don't.

Case in point, I've got still my my original Zebco Cardinal 3, 2-4s & 6. The 4s & 6 are over 50 years old & the 3 is 47. All have been well used and still working like new. The only major overhaul was adding aluminum spools to the 4s.

Edit: Not sure that previous Paul post got quoted (stuck) in the middle of the first paragraph. The gremlins (my fingers) must have been at it. It wasn't pertinent to what I was stating, especially where it was located. 

[happyhooker]

Steel on steel would be no good — no chance for the main to play well with the worm.  They fight each other.

Don't the Shakespeare Royal Maroons have both the pinion and main gear in steel?

Frank

[Paul Roberts]

Agree entirely, Tom. The ability of a reel to spin frictionless is indeed unimportant in spinners, although critical to DD conventional reels.

I guess my defn of a good fishing reel rating would include most basically: the ability to perform for the type of fishing I'm engaged in, durability, and tolerable noise. The "ability to perform" slides quickly into complexity and subjectivity.

Don't the Shakespeare Royal Maroons have both the pinion and main gear in steel?

Frank

Frank, I happen to have one handy (the Pflueger 551 version) and checked with a magnet. Both the pinion and main gear are magnetic. From what I've read, you could have both gears be steel, but tolerances would need to be very precise for them to work together.

[mo65]

From what I've read, you could have both gears be steel, but tolerances would need to be very precise for them to work together.

   Yes...tolerances must be tight for steel on steel. I've had aftermarket steel gears feel very rough, but also had them feel super smooth. Besides the Royal Maroon series, there is the South Bend Classic series if you like steel on steel gearing. Here's a photo of the Classic 960's engine...my holy grail of gears!

[philaroman]

Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon

Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?

[Paul Roberts]

mo65, welcome back to your thread! That SB has some serious gearing. Is that a steel oscillation arm too?

philaroman, I would think steel in steel in an UL, probably even a L reel would be... an overbuilt overbuild! I suspect that the line strengths reels are built for weigh in to how robust components need to be. Something that factors into what makes up a quality reel. Which is in part why my Shaky Sigma 030 has lasted over 30yrs as a goto UL. Guess same could be said for my D1300 Daiwa. They've never been taken beyond their limits.

[mo65]

mo65, welcome back to your thread! That SB has some serious gearing. Is that a steel oscillation arm too?

   Yes, its a stamped steel of some sort. All the parts inside the Classics are steel.

[Midway Tommy]

Tom did a Spin Mitey way back, which is a nice Japanese clone of Cargem Mignon

Spin Mitey is steel-on-steel worm UL -- is Cargem also steel-on-steel?

Opened her up and my Mignon is steel-on-steel. She's as smooth as can be, too.