Okuma Custom Blue 5Nii

Started by rogan, August 17, 2022, 10:56:33 PM

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boon

Quote from: sabaman1 on September 03, 2022, 05:10:24 AMWhere are the bellevilles in the schematic? I dont see any being listed also.

Left side of the spool shaft, between the bearing and the cross-pin... if they're anything like the Metaloid they will be held in place under slight compression by a C clip on the spool shaft, which is a gigantic pain in the rear to get back into place if you want to remove the bearing

alantani

rich, i have those bellevilles.  i will send them out.  i got them to help the drag profile of the andros and it really didn't help that much.  i'll send six.  try "((()))", "(())))", and "()))))" and see if any of these configurations make a difference. 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

rogan

An update, I took it to Cedros and it performed very well! It replaced a 3/0 sized reel that had a broken bridge screw the night before I left. I paired it up with a 7 foot 40lb rod and it made a great combo, catching a few yellowtail from 15lbs to 25lbs (and smaller sized bonito). I used it for slow trolling mackerel and fast trolling rapalas. No casting since I had a dedicated surface iron star drag on an 8 foot rod. I did use the low speed on one of the yellowtail at the end of the fight, it wasn't really needed, but this trip was the first time I've used any two speed reels, so I wanted to try it out.

The on/off style drag caused me some problems. When I moved the lever forward on a take, if the fish continued to take line without registering any increase in drag, I would bump the drag up a little more. The adjustments are so  coarse, meaning that a couple of clicks would jump the drag by a couple of pounds, I would instantly stop the fish and have my rod tip snap down with the increased drag pressure. I broke off at least two fish because of this rapid increase in drag.

Other than this problem, the reel was fantastic. Small, light, strong and easy to use. I decided to check the drag when I got home to see if there was any form of "burn in". I set the drag to "strike" and got 10lbs. Hey, wait a sec... I set the strike to 14lbs before I left on the trip, what's going on here... I checked full and got 18.5 lbs. It was set to 21 before the trip. I checked the number of clicks from free spool to where I get actual drag, 14. And then I realized what had happened. My panga captain had changed the pre set and adjusted the drag settings when I wasn't around. Our fishing gear is delivered to the captains and loaded onto the boat while we are finishing breakfast at the lodge. After seeing me break off two fish, he must have adjusted the drag setting. This is the exact thing that happened to me last year. I had set all of my drags last year with a scale prior to the trip. When I hooked my first fish last year, it took off as if I had no drag, because I didn't have any drag. The captain had re-set all of my drags to less than 8lbs. I am a little irritated. I got kelped and rocked twice because the drags were set so low the fish was able to get to structure while I was fiddling with the low drag settings.

When I added 6 clicks to the preset dial, I got the matching numbers I had set prior to the trip. So that meant it was time to open the reel and see what it looked like on the inside. Easy disassembly, separating the handle plate, frame and spool takes 6 screws and they are all the same torx 10 driver bit. The frame was greased, I think. It was so thin that it's hard to tell. I had some very light salt crystals inside after 4 days of use, but it wiped right off. The spool sides did not appear to be greased. The spindle slips out of the spool and as previously mentioned, the bellevilles are are held in place with a c-clip on the clicker side of the spool. The bearings are sealed and it appears they are oiled due to the oil residue and I decided to leave them as is for now since I am happy with the current free spool time of 22 seconds.

Since I was greasing the frame, I decided to remove the foot and do a proper job. That was my mistake... I snapped off the first screw head. And then I remembered a post (and video) of Alan torching the reel foot screws on an Andros. Good old locktite strikes again. Why take the time to install removable fasteners and then attach them permanently????  As soon as I broke the screw, I stopped working on the reel, so no further disassemble or pre-service was done. I haven't decided what I'm going to do about the reel foot screw yet.

Doc, Thanks for the info and insight about the cam. Upon visual inspection of mine, I agree that it appears to be a gradual and even slope, but I don't have the tooling to do any actual measurements the way you do. I see that Alan is sending me some bellevilles (thank you Alan!) so I will try them out and see if I can get a different drag profile without altering the cam.

I really like this reel and can see it being used for many applications. I had one larger model yellowtail give me some serious drag runs before being boated, causing me to move the lever past strike a couple of clicks to get enough drag to stop him, so I know the reel is up to the stated drag numbers. I feel comfortable fishing it up to 20 pounds, and that's a lot of great fishing potential in a small reel.

One last mention, I put one of Alan's 3/0 handles on it before the trip and it made the reel perfect!



jurelometer

#18
Quote from: alantani on September 05, 2022, 02:07:56 AMrich, i have those bellevilles.  i will send them out.  i got them to help the drag profile of the andros and it really didn't help that much.  i'll send six.  try "((()))", "(())))", and "()))))" and see if any of these configurations make a difference. 

Engineering wise, the more opposing cups- i.e, "()()()" the less increase in clamping load for the same amount of compression distance, i.e., less increase in load per degree of cam rotation. Bellevilles with the cups nested in the same direction "((((" have the opposite effect.  I would venture to guess that as many non-nested cups as possible plus a flat or two if needed for filling space would give you the most gradual ramp - something like this: ")()()|". 

If I am not misremembering :) , the order doesn't matter as much.

Stronger or weaker bellevilles can also alter the range - this is generally controlled by washer thickness.  McMaster usually has a a few different strengths for the same belleville ID/OD.

On the other hand, Alan has probably done this around a couple hundred times on lever drags, and I have done this about 5 times on fly reels :)

-J

alantani

crud....

to remove the reel seat screws, the frame has to be completely stripped down.  anything that can be removed, must be removed.  they you heat the screws with a propane torch to melt the loctite.  otherwise the soft stainless steel metric screws will shear off at the head.  it's a nightmare. 
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

jurelometer

#20
From the belleville horse's mouth - watch the video if you don't like looking at equations:

https://www.belleflex.com/resources/belleville-disc-spring-washer-tech-tips/what-is-stacking/

-J

ksandin

Rogan,

Thanks for the update and pictures and great job breaking it in! Did you run 40lb top shot?  I'm still debating if I want to make it a 30lb or 40lb reel on a PCH rod.
I'm shocked captain and crew would adjust your drags without you being around. Suggestions are always welcome and encouraged, but when you have it set up, the drag numbers were what you expected to see. 

I'm glad you opened it up and I'm sorry about reel foot screw, i would have done the exact same thing, and now I know.

Let us know how the bellevilles affect the drag curve.

Keith


Robert Janssen

#22
"...try "((()))", "(())))", and "()))))" and see if any of these configurations make a difference"

This will achieve precisely the opposite of what the OP wants.

Four bellevilles. Stacked the same way it was to begin with. ( ) ( ).

Softer bellevilles, softer drag. Softer belleville stack, softer drag curve.

Not ((-)X)[ or {>//(().

Just ( ) ( ).

Now, understandably, there will be a slight difference in the total stack height, probably around 0.8 mm.  This can be either A: ignored if there is room for it in the reel, or B: compensated for with a flat washer of approximately that thickness placed on either side of said belleville stock, or C: perhaps, if space allows, additional belleville springs, most preferably in accordance with the rest of the bellevilles, thusly ( ) ( ) ( ) if they all fit, or ) ( ) ( ) when viewed from behind. Said stack should NOT end with a belleville facing ( towards the ball bearing, since this will press the edges of the belleville into the shield of the ball bearing, and will not allow for deflection of the belleville.
Maybe, maybe a compromise could be reached to achieve the desired total stack height by placing the final belleville in the arrangement thusly ( ( ) ( ) since we have the first three bellevilles allowing a fairly ample range of movement when compared to the relatively slight rise of the reel's cam, but there may be a slight rise in drag pressure toward the end of the drag lever's arc.

.

Robert Janssen

"... I'm shocked captain and crew would adjust your drags without you being around. Suggestions are always welcome and encouraged, but when you have it set up, the drag numbers were what you expected to see."

I'm not. I was out tuna fishing last week, and when checking out the so-it-would-seem dialed in and properly adjusted reels, it became readily apparent that some folks have very different ideas of how reels work at all.

rogan

#24
Gentlemen, Thank you for the comments and the advice. I disassembled the reel again, stripped out the clicker parts and took it into the garage where I could apply some heat. I have a propane torch, but decided I would try a heat gun first.  The heat gun is a little wongo and was rewired after the switching went bad, so it only has one setting, high heat with low air flow. Well, that was the perfect setting for this application. 90 seconds of heat and the three remaining screws  came out as if they had no tension at all. I think the assembler is not using any mechanical force when installing these screws and is relying on the chemical bond to keep the screws in place. It took no force on the driver handler to remove the screws. And as you can see from the photos, the screws are completely covered in loctite.

I spent about 45 minutes trying to remove the broken screw and finally gave up before I caused any serious damage. I have a drill press and machinist vise, and after centerpunching the end of the screw, I was still not able to drill a hole in it for an extractor. I also don't have the correct sized extractor, but thought I might be able to use what I have. The screw is broken off flush and such a small size that the correct procedure would be to use a mill and an end cutter to keep proper alignment and not cause any damage to the frame. So for now, the broken screw will remain...

Keith, I ran a 3 foot 50lb top shot for the first two days, and suffered two break offs. After the second one, the captain decided to replace it with a 3 foot section of 60lb. I can't remember if I had any other breakoffs on that reel after the 60lb was put in place. I did break off two fish with 60lb on my Andros 12n on the last day, but break offs kinda summed up my trip this year. I used the SD jam knot for my terminal connection knot and had some problems with it in all the mono I used, so I need to review my trying methods and conduct some testing to see what is going on. I am very happy that my braid to mono connections all held strong with no issues, thank you Alan for the video in tying the modified Tony Pena knot, it worked very well for me and I will continue using it.


oldmanjoe

#25
  May i suggest for the broken screw ,after you heat it up try with a pencil with a eraser and back it out .
    Does the hole go through that the screw can be run through the case ?   That you have two ways out !

      Some times a screw driver will walk them out ,
Grandpa`s words of wisdom......Joey that thing between your shoulders is not a hat rack.....    use it.....
A mind is like a parachute, it only work`s  when it is open.......
The power of Observation   , It`s all about the Details ..
 Forget about all the reasons why something may not work. You only need to find one good reason why it will.   Alto Mare

jurelometer

Heat gun was a good call.  Red Loctite softens at 500F, so no need to go far beyond that and risk frying the dye in the anodize, or anealing the aluminum with a torch.   But the stuff only stays soft when hot, so keeping the broken screw hot long enough to extract is a challenge- a little butane pen torches might be nice. 

Seems like three screws is going to hold a foot onto a narrow little reel like that pretty well anyways, no?

-J

alantani

you can cut a slot in the top of the broken stud, then torch it and it should back out under the same tension as the other three.   :-\
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

Ron Jones

The drag deal sound like the heated discussion we had the last night. Soft drag is just how you fish down there (yep, everyone disagrees with me except the professionals who fish there every day.)

With as much drag at strike as is usually set, there is to much drag at the first click for trolling live bait. This is one reason I still like star drags, infinite adjustability. A big yellowtail will play with a bait for a bit, and if they feel unnatural resistance it is all over. The only way to do it with a lever is to back it off until there is no resistance or startup on the first click, which means you will probably need to use your thumb from time to time. A star doesn't suffer from the center wheel sindrome, and so nothing to full is always available.

As Martin says "it's fish!"

The Man
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

jurelometer

Quote from: Ron Jones on September 07, 2022, 02:15:58 AMThe drag deal sound like the heated discussion we had the last night. Soft drag is just how you fish down there (yep, everyone disagrees with me except the professionals who fish there every day.)

With as much drag at strike as is usually set, there is to much drag at the first click for trolling live bait. This is one reason I still like star drags, infinite adjustability. A big yellowtail will play with a bait for a bit, and if they feel unnatural resistance it is all over. The only way to do it with a lever is to back it off until there is no resistance or startup on the first click, which means you will probably need to use your thumb from time to time. A star doesn't suffer from the center wheel sindrome, and so nothing to full is always available.

As Martin says "it's fish!"

The Man


You could just set the adjustment knob so that the first click has the tension that you want and then go a bit before or past strike for fighting the fish, which is no harder than spinning a star in the heat of battle, and usually a bit easier to find the setting that you are looking for. No law that says you have to stop exactly at strike.

Plenty of info in this thread on belleville tuning if you want to fine tune the reel further.

Star drags often need to be tuned the same way for dragging live mackerel in the method you describe. I think that you want something about 180 degrees or a bit less.  If you have to spin the star a few revolutions, things can get a bit more error prone.

For me, I took a single rod and planned to cast or drop irons on Cedros,  Trolling is more of a last resort rather than a plan for the day.  But we all get to make our own choices.

-The Dude