Teflon, Delrin or UHMW

[Bryan Young]

Carbon Fiber

Teflon - PTFE

Delrin - Acetal

UHMW (also referred as UHMWPE) - Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene

So, there has been a lot of discussion between the use Carbon Fiber versus Teflon verses Delrin.

The reason why I use Carbon Fiber versus the fiber washer is to 1) create a smoother drag surface and 2) to create a drag surface where there was no drag washer there before.

Many reel manufactures have used Teflon in this area as well.  In fact, Teflon is still used by many reel manufacturers today.  Why?  Because it has a low coefficient of friction. 

Now comes Delrin.  Delrin is commonly used as a bearing material, is hard and is wear resistant.  It has a slightly higher coefficient of friction than Teflon.

And UHMW.  Higher wear resistant then Delrin and about the same coefficient of friction as Teflon

So my question is why has many of us here prefer to use Delrin versus Teflon, and not why consider UHMW?  It is apparent that the use of these materials is to create a very low friction area so that the undergear washer is treated as a bearing; and therefore, not relying on the surface as a drag surface such as myself.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. 

Thank you.

[Newell Nut]

Bryan

The smoothest drags in my conventionals is the Newell 4 stack system with your 5+1 which in my case is 6 CFs including the one under the gear which is a full size CF.

The key is to have grip and slippage combined. What would happen if I put a delrin under the gear on this arrangement? If what I have works nice then why mess with it is another question? May try it one day when I don't have anything else to do.

Dwight

[Keta]

Delrin has a higher compressive strength that PTFE or UHMW.

http://www.technicalproductsinc.com/teflon_specs.html

http://www.technicalproductsinc.com/delrin_specs.html

[Tightlines667]

Delron is king.

[jurelometer]

Agree with Lee and other folks.


1. The main gear has to remain flat.  That means low compression (look for compression strength)
2.  The material has to be hard enough to not get mangled by the dogs ( look for Rockwell hardness rating)
3.  The material has to have sufficient operating temp range ( both low and high)
4.  The material must be slippery (coefficient of friction)
5.  Material must be salt water and grease/oil resistant.

Acetal (brand name Delrin) does pretty good In all these categories.  The high temp range is a bit on the low side.  Once it gets too hot, it will start to get soft.   I think the max op temp for delrin is around 200 degrees F, but the softening really starts to kick in  more around 250(could be wrong, this from memory).   There are different suppliers and different versions, so it is good to look at the specs for your supplier.  The jury is still out on delrin, but I think the best test is to do an extended run under high drag to get the temp up.

Carbon fiber drag washers are better for temp range and will have the same friction as the drag stack, but suffer in compression and hardness.  So we know fiber under gear washers will shred on some reels under heavy load.   But they have been used for a while now on many reels with satisfied customers.  Sometimes the devil you know...

There are lots of other plastics out there that could be considered, but most are not as hard as delrin.   The ones that are  hard are usually not slippery enough.  I think I found a couple that were interesting but he price is much higher than delrin.

Btw. I have fly reels with  delrin or rulon drags that have caught tons of fish.   The rulon drag reel has never had a drag service.  It is my small tuna reel and it puts the hurt on the skipjacks.

Bryan:  let me know if you need any more delrins. I would be happy to cut some on the laser for you.

[fsrmn]

On the McMaster.com site there are 3 types of delrin. Regular, pfte filled and glass filled. Which would be best for use as a thrust washer?

[fIsHsTiiCkS]

On the McMaster.com site there are 3 types of delrin. Regular, pfte filled and glass filled. Which would be best for use as a thrust washer?

I would say regular, because the other types do not have very good compression strength

[Alto Mare]

Agree with Lee and other folks.
Carbon fiber drag washers are better for temp range and will have the same friction as the drag stack, but suffer in compression and hardness.  So we know fiber under gear washers will shred on some reels under heavy load.   But they have been used for a while now on many reels with satisfied customers.  Sometimes the devil you know...

Hello Dave, yes, Carbon Fiber washers have been doing great and I sure don't have any complains.
I believe we're still missing the point here, the drag stack, along with the main gear should rotate on something as smooth and durable as possible, that's how you would get the smoothest drags.
The washer under the gear should always have a different function than the washers in the gear, that one should be as smooth as possible and the other creating friction.
I believe Penn is starting to use the Delrin on their reels, but I might be wrong. If they are, we wouldn't need to worry about heat or anything else, lots of engineers there. .

On another note, When you requested the dimensions, I thought you were cutting those for everyone here, at a charge of course. I didn't know that those were only for Bryan...he doesn't believe in them anyway, so I'm confused . If he wanted to give it a go, he would only need one or two
Take care my friend.
Sal

[Keta]

.......On another note, When you requested the dimensions, I thought you were cutting those for everyone here, at a charge of course.

I have the drawings and will give them to anyone that wants to have them cut and make them available at a reasonable price.

[Jeri]

Hi  guys,

Perhaps a leaf out of Finnor's manual – in the OFC and Lethal (multipliers) models they recess the underside of the main gear, and drop a full shielded roller bearing in there.

Complies with all the requirements – though perhaps might be a little more costly to produce, but it works great. 4 years of seeing these reels being used and abused on our coast, and never seen a failure on that bearing. Not that we are pulling anything that would generate serious heat – the odd fast swimming shark, but for a protracted time, and in very poor maintenance cycles – the bearing has proved no problem.

Just a thought???

Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[Bryan Young]

So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.

As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?



These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves.  The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers.  The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster).  

The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal. 

[Keta]

They will still compress but will not get into the ratchet.

[Alto Mare]

Hi  guys,

Perhaps a leaf out of Finnor's manual – in the OFC and Lethal (multipliers) models they recess the underside of the main gear, and drop a full shielded roller bearing in there.

Complies with all the requirements – though perhaps might be a little more costly to produce, but it works great. 4 years of seeing these reels being used and abused on our coast, and never seen a failure on that bearing. Not that we are pulling anything that would generate serious heat – the odd fast swimming shark, but for a protracted time, and in very poor maintenance cycles – the bearing has proved no problem.

Just a thought???

Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

Hello Jeri. I've tried these:



If the heat is not a problem, I would rather have a Delrin washer there.

So, the problem is compression of the undergear drag washer, and Delrin provides a flatter surface.

As many of you are Penn Fanaticals, how about theses...creating a Penn version of Newell's 4 Stack, or now 6 stack?



These are Alan's new jigmaster gear sleeves.  The washer on the right is for 113, and others that use 6-113 or 6-60 drag washers.  The one on the right is with a drag washer 6-309 (jigmaster). 

The compression of the undergear drag washer is now supported by a solid base and the compression of the drag washer should be minimal. 

Those look nice Bryan, a nice platform for a Delrin washer .

[jurelometer]

Agree with Lee and other folks.
Carbon fiber drag washers are better for temp range and will have the same friction as the drag stack, but suffer in compression and hardness.  So we know fiber under gear washers will shred on some reels under heavy load.   But they have been used for a while now on many reels with satisfied customers.  Sometimes the devil you know...

Hello Dave, yes, Carbon Fiber washers have been doing great and I sure don't have any complains.
I believe we're still missing the point here, the drag stack, along with the main gear should rotate on something as smooth and durable as possible, that's how you would get the smoothest drags.
The washer under the gear should always have a different function than the washers in the gear, that one should be as smooth as possible and the other creating friction.
I believe Penn is starting to use the Delrin on their reels, but I might be wrong. If they are, we wouldn't need to worry about heat or anything else, lots of engineers there. .

On another note, When you requested the dimensions, I thought you were cutting those for everyone here, at a charge of course. I didn't know that those were only for Bryan...he doesn't believe in them anyway, so I'm confused . If he wanted to give it a go, he would only need one or two
Take care my friend.
Sal

Hi Sal,   

I agree with your main point. The properties I listed are those needed for a thrust bearing under a drag/clutch.   I think that acting as a supplemental drag surface is fine if it does not get in the way of its primary purpose.

The delrin will be the component in the drag system with the lowest max temp.  Something to keep an eye on, but not a deal breaker.  

I wanted to try delrin for myself.  I cut a bunch of extras at the same time, and sent some to several members who have wanted to try.   Didn't charge anyone.  Just  paying back.  

Thanks for the measurements.  

[Alto Mare]

I wanted to try delrin for myself.  I cut a bunch of extras at the same time, and sent some to several members who have wanted to try.   Didn't charge anyone.  Just  paying back.  

Thanks for the measurements.  

You're a good man Dave, I've enjoyed our conversations. Thanks for your knowledge

Jeri, I forgot the specs on the needle bearing
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5909K31
Sal