alan tani @ alantani.com fishing reel repair rebuild tutorial Drag Fade
Reel Repair by Alan Tani
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Author Topic: Drag Fade  (Read 22058 times)
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Keta
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« Reply #120 on: December 27, 2016, 02:08:41 PM »

But spool height does, more inches per revelution meens a larger spool diameter will not spin as fast as a smaller one at the same speed.
on lever drag reels with carbon fiber on spool side, whether glued clipped etc, yes, my 2 cents.

On star drag reels too.  Less RPM at the same fpm for the taller spool.  A spool that has a line circunferance of 4" will spin twice as fast as one with a circumferance of 8" if the line is going out at the same speed.
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Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.
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« Reply #121 on: December 27, 2016, 04:51:38 PM »

I understand "work" and energy and the law of conservation of mater and energy , I just do not understand why the gear reduction does not help.  

I am as qualified as a  physicist as I am a mechanical engineer (NOT!), but this is how I see it:

Let's take two theoretical reels that are identical, except one has a spool height twice the other.   Now both reels end up applying an average  X lbs of drag for Y yards from a full spool.  The reel with the tall spool required twice the pressure on the drag stack  to achieve X lbs of drag but only had to spin half as many revolutions for Y yards. Multiply by two, divide by two- back where we started...  the same formula can be applied to gear reduction on a star drag.

However  this does not mean that all spool, gear, drag stack combinations will perform the same.   And a better performing drag system might be cooler at the end of an identical run - but not because less heat conversion occurred (if we are doing a fair test), but because the system provided a larger capacity "heat sink"  or did a better job of transferring the heat to somewhere else.

-J
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Dr. Jekyll - AKA MeL B
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« Reply #122 on: December 27, 2016, 05:11:02 PM »

at the end of the day there's only one way to find out do the tests under "lab conditions"...4 reels, 2 lever drags e.g. 1 MXJ and the other HXJ - 2 star drags, 1 4/0 senator and the other 9/0 senator. the results will definitely not lie. anybody has two line winders willing to do the  and all the reels? ooops i might have a problem again because i'm posting too much good bye...LMAO!  Grin Cheesy Wink Smiley
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 05:27:00 PM by Potiguar - AKA MeL B » Logged
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« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2017, 05:05:05 PM »

I have a theory that the drag grease may be contributing to the loss of drag pressure, as it heats up.

QUESTION : Did the 112H reel in the video return to it's original 8lb drag setting, after it cooled off ?

HYPOTHESIS : A greased carbon-fiber drag will be smoother, but a non-greased carbon-fiber drag will perform better at high temperature

I think the test should be conducted this way . . .

(1) 4 reels . . . 2 identical Star Drag reels ( 1 greased / 1 dry ) . . . 2 identical Lever Drag reels ( 1 greased / 1 dry )

(2) Measure them at identical RPM, for identical periods of time.

(3) Calculate relative Spool RPM and adjust winder RPM & Time to simulate Speed & "run lengths" being made by actual fish ( Up to 70 mph for a sailfish )

      a. - Sharks - Small, Medium, & Large (Up to 50 mph - MAKO - See Chart)
      b. - Tuna - Up to & including Bluefin Tuna (45mph)
      c. - Billfish - Sailfish (70 mph), White Marlin (48 mph), Swordfish (40 mph), Blue Marlin (50mph)
      d. - Wahoo (60 mph)

(4) Low, Medium, & High speeds

(5) Chart the results

(6) Draw conclusions from the data

Tight Lines !









* SPEEDS.JPG (83.43 KB, 410x910 - viewed 152 times.)
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Tightlines666
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« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2017, 05:16:40 PM »

Cool info.

I have always believed both the Wahoo and the Shortfin Mako Shark can attain speeds closer to 60mph not 48mph.   Read it in some paper somewhere.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 08:16:12 PM by Tightlines666 » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2017, 07:44:06 PM »

Cool info.

I have always believed both the Wahoo and the Shortfin Mako Shark can attend speeds closer to 60mph not 48mph.   Read it in some paper somewhere.

It's very possible . . . I saw many different "numbers" online. 

I'd really like to see a test laid out the way I spec'd out above .

A 300yd run @ 60mph would take less than 10.3 seconds ( 60 mph + 88 ft/sec and 900 / 88 = 10.227272 Seconds ) . . .

The reel in the video was subjected to heating for a longer period of time, at an unknown speed, which doesn't reflect what would happen in a "real world" fishing situation.

Tight Lines !
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JnM Fishing
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« Reply #126 on: November 22, 2017, 12:43:31 PM »

Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!

Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...
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« Reply #127 on: November 22, 2017, 08:04:08 PM »

Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!

Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...

My insert drag kits for the 114H and 115 mas out above 70 lbs of drag, while still being extremely smooth well beyond 35 lbs of drag. 
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« Reply #128 on: November 22, 2017, 09:23:19 PM »

Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!

Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...

My insert drag kits for the 114H and 115 mas out above 70 lbs of drag, while still being extremely smooth well beyond 35 lbs of drag. 


Do you make a drag stack for the 12/0 Huh?Huh?
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« Reply #129 on: November 22, 2017, 10:10:05 PM »

Hmm sounds to me like you should go with a Penn 9/0 with a Cortez-Conversions stainless half frame, stainless sleeve and then take some coarse sand paper to the metal washers in the drag stack and rough them up( this will add to the drag pressure that the reel puts out) and apply a decent amount of Cal's grease to the drags and you will be set for war with the fish!

Also* don't recommend the above setup without a decent harness as it puts out about 35Ibs of drag... if you decide to upgrade to Brian Young's 7+1 and rough up the metal washers you can push the 6/0 and 9/0's to around 50-60 pounds drag... crazy I know.. but i don't recommend this without a Tiburon or Cortez frame (depending on which size reel you go with) and a full set of stainless internals:( Stainless gear sleeve, Alan makes a good one, can be found on scottsbaitandtackle.com, stainless double dogs, and a set of ceramic bearings from Boca to reduce friction. This build was a little pricey though but with 100ib braid it'll do almost as good as a 12/0 in a smaller package...

My insert drag kits for the 114H and 115 mas out above 70 lbs of drag, while still being extremely smooth well beyond 35 lbs of drag. 


Do you make a drag stack for the 12/0 Huh?Huh?

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13432.0  I have kits in stock for most, PM me to place an order.
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kmstorm64
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« Reply #130 on: August 22, 2018, 02:53:04 PM »

Jeff, as I understand drag fade it is the effect of the drag washers heating up during a long fight, by changing to carbon fiber from asbestos less fade is realized and when you add a drag grease this helps even further, allowing longer fights by reducing the heat causing friction....I know little about the 16VSX, but with a larger drag surface of the drag disc, carbon fiber and grease I would think the fight could be even longer than traditional star drags.  I can only guess but the 16vsx surface would be more surface than a stock 114H ?....Going to a 7+1 adds even more surface....JMO I am sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in...... Bill

Another issue that would come into play would be the temperature range of the grease in question. From my time pulling apart wheel hubs in Iraq, I can tell you the lower the temp range of the grease the greater the likelihood it will fail sooner. I have seen wheel bearing grease flow out of wheel hubs when they came off the road. We switched to an unauthorized synthetic grease that changed everything.  No more grease & bearing failures. it did not reduce our need to repack constantly due to dust and debris of that environment.  This of course is an extreme condition, but say you were using bacon grease (something that would fail pretty quickly as the temp shot up), your reel would suffer from it as the viscosity of the grease changed.

A grease with a low viscosity would not hold up long against your shark.  Where as a grease rated to 500+ degrees F would do just fine and not be affected. When we use Cal's or any other Drag grease what range is it rated for?  I haven't been able to find any specs on Cal's or other drag grease. I did try some synthetic high temp grease on a couple of reels years ago, I didn't see any marked improvements and could not justify using it further. That said I am using smaller reels and not going after Sharks and other fish capable of scorching a reel. Would it make a difference?  Maybe, over a prolonged fight. I think it would be the temp range of different drag greases may make a difference to some but to the 99% no noticeable difference.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:42:30 AM by kmstorm64 » Logged

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