Senator 6/0 drag problems

[Greybadger]

Hi there, newbie to this excellent forum here, hoping someone can help me over here in the UK. I've recently bought a used Penn 114HL Senator2 (US made). It was in very good condition but as I do with all my reels I stripped it down anyway, gave it a thorough cleaning, and regreased it and built it back up. I've only today received the line I bought for it and so having spooled it up I tested the smoothness of the drag by putting it on a rod and tying the line to a door. Result was a jerky drag, not smooth like I'd expected from a big game type reel. Now I'm due to use this on a sharking trip on Friday so I know I'm cutting this fine, but I was hoping some of you Penn experts could assist?

As far as I am aware I have reassembled it exactly as it came apart, I take photos during the strip down, and also refer to the schematic, so I'm confident it's not that. The stand-out thing about the drag stack is that there is one washer too many (based on the schematic). The stack is made up as follows –

·         1 plastic or fibre washer under the main gear

·         then the main gear itself

·         and then 6 carbon fibre and 5 stainless steel washers in the following order – C,S,C,S,C,S,C,S,CC,S (note the doubled up carbon disc near the end)

·         then the spring disk

·         spacer sleeve

·         thick tension spring

·         star wheel

·         finally the thin tension spring, handle, etc

Did the Senator2's come with the HT100 drag stack as standard or is this likely to have been an after-market addition? I wonder if the previous owner fitted an upgraded stack but added the 6th carbon washer to the main stack rather than switching it with the plastic washer under the main gear? The schematic that came with the reel only shows 5 carbon washers, which includes the one under the gear.

However, I have tried several different arrangements of the washers, including removing the 6th washer altogether, and none of them solve the 'jerky' problem. In fact, removing the 6th carbon washer made it considerably worse, and there seemed to be quite a large gap between the star drag wheel and the drag stack underneath. I even considered that it may be the amount of Cals Drag grease I used, so I've tried it with lots, and then tried it with just a smear, and then finally tonight I degreased the whole stack again and just soaked the washers in 3-in-1 oil, but that doesn't work either. The one thing I haven't yet tried is to remove the fibre washer and put the 6th carbon disc in its place, but having already tried a stack with 5 washers which was very sticky, i'm not convinced it'll be any better.

I'm at a bit of a loss! I'll try to post some pics if I can work out how to set up a flicker account or similar, but in the meantime has anyone got any ideas?

Thanks very much,



Mark.

[Tightlines667]

Pull that CF washer and make sure you have a spring disc (18-114h) on top of the last metal washer in the drag stack, then the spacing sleeve, thick/heavy spring washer, star, thin/light spring washer, then handle.  Keep the under gear washer too.  It is possible you're overall drag stack height might need slight modification but try the arrangement listed on schematic first.  After assembly, backing the star all the way off should result in near zero drag, while just starting to tighten the star should begin to apply some pressure to the stack (ideally).  I'm not sure why you would have the extra CF washer in the stack.  A pic of the stack in the gear to show overall height might be useful too.  Good luck.

[Greybadger]

Thanks for the response mate, appreciated. I'll take a photo of the stack tonight and post it. The washer on the far left of the row of washers in the attached photo is the spring disk, so is already included. And I've already tried it by removing the 6th carbon washer (the stack then sits neatly to the top of the main gear) but it appeared even less smooth when I tried it. I just don't see what could be causing it, unless i've got a spring washer upside down perhaps, but I don't think so.

[Alto Mare]

Great shot Greybadger! You got yourself a nice reel.
I don't remember ever seen a gasket on the foot on that frame, good one.
About your issue, that reel should feel silky smooth.
Everything looks good and I've done two carbon before with no issues, so this is not unusual to me.
I do want to mention that when I need to make up room on the stack, I always place the additional washers on top of the last keyed metal washer.
Anything above the last keyed metal washer does not produce drag, metal or carbon.
With what your showing, your easiest solution is to remove one of the carbon fiber washer from the two that are together and add another metal washer there. The cupped washer(Belleville) will sit right on top and yes, it will do just fine having three metal washers on top.
You will follow with a spacer and the thick spring washer that you're showing right under your handle.
The thinner tension spring, you could go with or without, I take mine out because I usually like my drag to start very soft and it helps.

Now, this isn't related to the issue, but if you wanted to make that reel really smooth, replace that washer for under the gear with a delrin washer and replace that last keyed metal washer that I mentioned with a derlin washer as well, you will be surprised on the extra smoothness.Is is ok if the delrin washer sits right under the Belleville.
Good luck!
Sal

[jonnou]

http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=44.0][url]http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=44.0
http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=208.0

I am no Expert But it has to be smooth keep going till you get it right
Just remember every time you tear it down you will learn and Improve
Click on the above links and you will find all you need to Know
Hope this Helps
Good luck Jon

[Greybadger]

Thanks fellas, it's good to know at least that it should be much smoother than it is at present so i'll keep going. My previous experience of using old Penns is limited to Delmars and Long Beaches in the 80's. Some nice suggestions there Sal, hadn't realised they made washers in delrin, that's the material Mitchell used to make their side plates of for the 600's. Are they easy enough to source?

Think i'll first try swapping out the washer from under the main gear and changing it for the 6th carbon disc (although I think it'll be too large), a la the schematic. If that doesn't work then i'll put it back as it was and move the 6th carbon washer to above the last keyed metal washer as per Sals suggestion. And if that fails too, then I may consider buying a whole new drag set and starting from scratch, but that would seem a shame. May be worth considering the steel upgrades to gears and sleeve at the same time. There does seem to be quite a bit of play between the bridge plate and the brass gear sleeve at the moment, I know some is usual from my other reels, and maybe with the components just being so oversize compared to those in my smaller reels that it appears larger than it is.

[jonnou]

Just had a close up look at the photo
I have just taken a very similar reel apart 114HLW
and the brass gear has a raised peice in the centre where the drag stack goes
I have asked Sal about it in another thread
It looks like your gear is the same?
(black ring in center of gear)
I think the first Cf washer needs a larger dia inner hole to clear this lump?
or delete the lump
Jon

[Greybadger]

I think that may be a trick of the light in the photo. There is indeed a black ring in the centre of the main gear, I suspect it's a harder alloy or perhaps steel to take extra wear, but it's not raised any higher than the brass gear around it. That's on mine at least.

[Shark Hunter]

Are you greasing your drags with drag grease? This will help smooth it out as well.

[Greybadger]

Hi, yep, as stated, I tried loads of Cals, then just a smear, and then none at all. Nothing's worked so far. Plan another evening of stripping it and rebuilding it tonight!

[foakes]

You will get it dialed in perfectly, Greybadger --

You seem very well organized -- have a good understanding of the mechanics -- and the dedication and passion to learn as you go, with help from many of the experts on this board.

Off the subject a little:

Isn't it nice to work on a reel that one can take apart as many times as necessary, and even after dozens of services, repairs, and inspections -- still goes back together as new?

The materials and metals in these old Penns make me really grateful.  

Imagine breaking down a graphite reel dozens of times.  Even with sleeve screw inserts, I have seen the tolerances start to degenerate just after a few disassembly operations.  Even with some very high $$$ reels.  This is true for conventionals, as well as spinners.  Give me machined screws, quality metal and aluminum materials, and basically simple, proven design -- any day, over plastics and graphite.

I for one, would forgo a little lighter weight advantage,  for a virtually bullet-proof old Penn.

Best,

Fred

[crackerman]

Are you sure it is the drags?
Possibly could be an engagement issue between the spool and pinion gear, or pinion and main gear. Remember that the bridge screws that only have threads on the ends of em with a long bare shank are for the yoke springs. Could the yoke be binding up, offering incomplete mesh on the gears or anyway on the shaft?

[Greybadger]

Crackerman, that's an interesting thought, one I hadn't considered. I'll check it over but I have to say I'm pretty certain it's the drag.

Fred, couldn't agree more. I've recently stripped and rebuilt all my fathers reels from the late 60's, 70's and 80's - Mitchell 306, Daiwa 785, 7700 and 7500, Abu 9000 and 506, Penn 285 and 68, Mitchell 600, 602, 622, and 624 - all of them are a pleasure to work on, especially the all-metal fixed spools (or spinners as you guys call them). Like your office by the way, a much better outlook than mine!

Mark

[Greybadger]

well, I've drawn stumps. I've stripped it again, removed the plastic washer from underneath the main gear and replaced it with the rogue 6th carbon washer from out of the stack. So now it matches the schematic that came with it. Reassembled with Cals and tried it again - it's better, slightly, but still not perfectly smooth. It catches slightly, more so when I've tightened down on the drag. Just to remind myself and to make sure I wasn't imagining this, I put my lever drag Okuma on the rod and did the same exercise, result was a perfectly smooth release of line under pressure.

So not sure where to go with this. I've no spare washers of a correct size to try Sals suggestion of adding one as a spacer so will forgo that. And looking at it now anyway, it seems to 'look right' if you know what I mean. Perhaps the carbon discs aren't Penn HTs and in some way not suitable? But I doubt that, I've swapped out standard washers for non-standard Carbontex-type washers in all my Shimano fixed-spools and they work just fine.

I don't suppose it could be anything to do with the gear sleeve? I've been mulling over swapping it for a SS one, along with the obligatory SS gears, dog and yoke. But, if the drag ain't right in the first place it's seems false economy to shell out on further upgrades.

Pic attached of the drag stack and gear as it was when first removed from the reel. Not great I'm afraid, it was only intended for my purposes of remembering the order in which they came out.

Mark.

[crackerman]

Anotherhing inlike to do that helps settle the drag stack down and makes it more consistent, is tighten the drag down2-4 lbs, tie the line off and go for a run across the yard. Tighten down more, do the same thing, and then at 3/4of drag or more. It puts heat into the stack and "breaks it in" making the carbon surfaces consisitent. It seems to make mine a bit smoother. And it will give you full range of drag, from zero to max, if set properly.

Was the face of the gear glassed over? Or was it a dull color? If shiny it may need to be scuffed a little bit to let the frictions do their jobs properly.