big boy senator inserts

[Sea Dweller]

I am interested in one set for sure, possibly two. Depends on if I decide to keep my pristine 16/0 as a wall hanger.

[Shark Hunter]

I got to work on the 14/0 this evening.
Adam, I replaced that original steel main with a new stainless one from Scott's and it is thicker on the bottom, leaving less space on the top.
I also opted for stainless posts for the 16 and 14/0.
Using 1/8" thick washers, I stuck with a 5 stack on this bad boy.
I got lucky being able to pull the original gear through the plate. Here is a great shot of Tom's prototype sleeve with simultaneous engaging stainless dogs from Lee.
After putting the stack together, just with 5 thick washers, There was not enough pressure on the stack.
I put a thin spacer on top and it was perfect. Probably 10 lbs with the star backed all the way off, just like the 12/0. I think I'm ready. I have a Delrin on the bottom and top.

[Tightlines667]

That thing looks pretty wicked Daron!

I think the gear sleeve, dogs, gear set, and posts will really strengthen the reel up.  Those inserts are going to make that drag smooth as silk.  

I think you ought to think of a fitting name for this 'hotrodded' big boy at somepoint.

The reel will handle alot, but I would definately precaution others thinking of using these against using one of the newer aluminum spools with these inserts.  

The only other upgrade(s) I think these big senators would truely benefit from is a beefer stand, maybe SS bars, and a bridge where the gear sleeve is supported at the plate.  These would greatly strengthen the 'frame', and sleeve againsy forces beyond what the origional engineers had in mind.

I envision either cast (like the old 130s), or annodized aluminum like those Cal offers for the old 80s.  Unfortunately the screw holes are misaligned slightly, and there is no room to drill/tap different ones.  I wonder how many would need to be made for a proper run?  The stock stands should be solid enough with the rod braces, and those SS arms should reduce reel twist under higher loads.  But over time they fatigue, and warp.  Guess its easy enough to replace the stock stand if/when it ever needs it.  

The reel should be able to handle big numbers as is, provided you don't try to crank under really heavy drag, at least not without handle assist, or as the locals here xall it 'Hawaii Style'.  The gears, sleeve, and dogs can certainly take it, but the stand post/bridge connection may fatique more quickly under heavier abuse.  

Most guys are not going to fish the new inserts at anywhere near what they are capable of, and even if they did, I think the reel is still capable to taking it.

Bearings might wear a bit under leavier prolonged loads too, but certainly will not be prone to catastrophic failure.  Hogh tllaranve aftermarket ceramics, might ail more quickly as well.  Be best to stick with stock (Abec 5 SS).

As Sal likes to say (or at least I think he does?) the strength in having this system, will likely be much smootherdrags when fishing the reel within its 'effective' range.   The drag curve should be a bit more consistent on this range as well (i.e. moving the star in one notch = 6lbs instead of 10lbs) when fishing nearer max. as well.

I am sure it will handle your sharks just fine.  It should pass any tests or paces you put it through on standup gear with flying colors.  

I think the only real issues that might arise, will be with decreased wear intervals over prolonged use.  What concerns me a bit, is the fact that many of the semicommercial guys here, spool their 14/0s up with 250lb mono, crank the drags down, and use the boat to turn, control, and quickly land big Ahi.  A more solid reel stand, and maybe alum. crossbars would definately stiffen the reel up, and provide some piece of mind if someone is plannimg to actually fish this reel at high numbers.

Old 80 internationals, as you know have alum side plates, more strongly supported drive shafts, much larger bearings.  They do have a propensity to twist the stands (often breaking the mounting tabs, when they get older/fatuged), and are fished at higher drag numbers with the duradrag upgrade.  A new stand fixes the problem.  Cal already took care of this.  *See attached pic.

Heat generation will be greater too, a SS star would help to avoid it getting locked to the sleeve when it swells after getting hot.  Try the test sometime with a torch.  As soon as it cools down it moves freely once again.  Guess this is why they were dumping buckets of water in the senator in Jaws.

These are great, simple, true workhorses of the big game world, but now they have been taken to a whole new level.  

Sorry for the diatribe, didn't mean to hijack the post.  

These inserts should be one of the best upgrades available for these larger Senators.

[crackerman]

Why worry about the aluminum spool? I think it would be a bit stronger than the 3 piece one on the old

[Three se7ens]

You probably already caught this, but be aware of the lip on the inside of the gear on some gears.  The hole in the first cf washer will need to be enlarged, and it might even take stacking 2 cf washers on the bottom to give enough height that the first metal washer wont bottom out on that lip.  I dont remember which, but one of those 2 gears you sent me had the lip, and one didnt. 

As always, it looks great, and Im sure it will perform just as well.

[Newell Nut]

Daron

Be careful so we don't read about you getting drug out to sea. Next upgrade would be a fighting chair that hooks to your trailer hitch unless you are on a non drive beach. Have a safety plan of some sort.

[Shark Hunter]

That's why I opted for the stainless gear Adam, It doesn't have that lip and I like the way the insert sat higher in the gear. I will be safe Dwight. I will keep some snips ready, If I have to cut the line if it locks up. I am also incorporating my Harness and belt into one unit with some clips. My belt unclips with one push.

[Tightlines667]

Daron,

Thats a great idea to have the ability to get out of your harness quickly.  Hopefully you won't have to hit the eject button, but better to be prepared.  A readily accessable knife would probably be your best friend. 

I've never seen a large senator aluminum spool fail.  I'm not sure what it would take to do so.  I imagine it would take alot to actually bring about a catestrophic type failure though.  I'm sure they would probably be fine under most comditions.  But the chromed-bronze spools are no doubt much stronger. 

Where are the myth busters when we need them?

[Shark Hunter]

Since I didn't latch onto a Shark with Adam's insert. I finally did a static test with the 12/0. I used a 50 cal ammo can with 500 rounds of .308 inside. It weighed in right at 30 lb. All a stock 12/0 will put out. I lifted it clear of the deck without slipping. I eased it down and it felt pretty smooth. This is my nicest rig. A Calstar Baby boomer 130 spooled with 100 lb mono. I think the pic says it all.
The star was about a half a turn from full lock down. I think this is perfect. With the Delrin on the top and bottom, this is all the drag you will need. I know the math, says this could provide 100 lbs of drag. I think 50 is tops with the 8 stack of Versa drag. Perfection. I don't want to push it any more than this.
A perfect balance of smoothness and power. Not enough to destroy the reel or me.

[Three se7ens]

I see you tried 8 cf washers, as well as 5 cf washers with the thicker stainless washers.  What did you think of one vs the other?  I could offer both combinations, or anything in between.  What did you end up with for the overall stack height?

Im getting ready to do a production run of these, but I dont plan on keeping them in stock like my other parts.  Ill start a new thread with pricing and you can put your name on the list there.  It will take me about 3 weeks from when I order the material to having kits ready to deliver, and payment wont be due until the parts are ready to ship. 

In the mean time, Id like to hear form Daron on the 5 stack vs 8 stack, as well as other peoples thoughts and requests.  The 5 stack will be cheaper, and more progressive at lower drags.  A 7 or 8 stack may be a bit smoother at high drag, but the minimum drag may be high, and it will ramp up quicker. 

[ChileRelleno]

Hey Adam,
I finally got around to installing the 9/0 insert.
It didn't fit in the Pro Challenger stainless gear, took me an hour or so of careful fitting with a Dremel.
It fits great now, in/out like there's hair around it.
I do have another slight issue, the stainless washers are very tight on Alan's stainless gear sleeve, they go on but are so tight the drag doesn't back off like it should.
Which poses a question for anyone here, should I fit the washers or take a hair off the sleeve's flats?

Also, I'd like to have a backup drag stack for both the 9/0 and the 12/0 when they're ready.
Let me know how much and I'll PayPal you the funds, please and thank you.

[Three se7ens]

Hey Adam,
I finally got around to installing the 9/0 insert.
It didn't fit in the Pro Challenger stainless gear, took me an hour or so of careful fitting with a Dremel.
It fits great now, in/out like there's hair around it.
I do have another slight issue, the stainless washers are very tight on the gear sleeve, they go on but are so tight the drag doesn't back off like it should.
Which poses a question for anyone here, should I fit the washers or take a hair off the sleeve's flats?

Also, I'd like to have a backup drag stack for both the 9/0 and the 12/0 when they're ready.
Let me know how much and I'll PayPal you the funds, please and thank you.

File the washers, not the gear sleeve.  The sizing issues are why I have been putting off more insert kits, but the waterjet has been fixed now and is cutting fantastically.

The pro challenger gears do seem to be a much tighter fit on my inserts than the penn gears.  Sal had a hard time getting his to work too, but that exact one dropped right into a brass gear of mine before I shipped it.  Im reluctant to reduce the size much because that will leave a looser fit on the original penn gears. 

You bring up a good point though.  I do test fit all the parts I sell, but manufacturing tolerances can make parts that fit good for me not fit for someone else.  If anyone has an issue, please contact me.  I want to know, and Ill make sure you get taken care of.  I want me parts to fit as well as possible, and I cant do that without feedback. 

[Shark Hunter]

Adam,
I haven't tested the 5 stack in the 14/0 yet. I will do it this weekend. With the thick washers, that's all you can fit in there. The eight stack in the 12/0 is gong to be hard to beat. I also put a Delrin on the bottom of the gear and a smaller one, the diameter of the washers, on top.
The height on the 12/0 insert with an eight stack is about perfect. I put a thin washer on top of the last CF, then the Delrin, then a thick washer.
The old 14/0 steel gear with the insert left a gap at the top of the gear I didn't like.(Far right)
I had one if the new stainless gears from Scott's. problem solved.

[David Hall]

I'm in for a 12/0 set as well as the 9/0 your working on.

[ChileRelleno]

Adam, your 9/0 insert fit perfectly in both stock Penn 9/0 steel & brass gears.
Was only too big in the Pro Challenger gear.

I don't mind a little fitting of custom parts, it is part of the fun of working on your own stuff.
Will do on fitting the washers, do that next time I open it up.