Brass vs. SS drag washers

[sdlehr]

OK, so it seems that Penn made most (all?) of their conventional reels with brass drag washers, but all the aftermarket upgrades available here have SS drag washers - I know brass is softer, but as far as I can tell that doesn't apply here because of the way the metal washers apply pressure (and increase friction) - just can't picture axial loads warping the bronze washers with an axial load... so all I can think of is that the SS holds up better and doesn't warp with the heat generated when the drag is in use, but that's a guess. One needs to be part materials scientist to understand a lot of this stuff. Can someone please explain the rationale for replacing bronze drag washers with SS ones? Thanks in advance.

Sid
SE FL

[Shark Hunter]

Sid,
No scientist stuff from me. The truer the metal drag washers are against the carbon fiber, the smoother the drag will be.
Same reason we put all the other stainless in our reels. Tougher than brass and will maintain its shape under a heavier load.

[day0ne]

OK, so it seems that Penn made most (all?) of their conventional reels with brass drag washers, but all the aftermarket upgrades available here have SS drag washers -

Not for that long and they replaced them with SS. You need a really old reel for the brass washers.

[cbar45]

Can someone please explain the rationale for replacing bronze drag washers with SS ones? Thanks in advance.

Sid
SE FL

I would like to know as well...Seems there were at least three types of metal washers used: solid brass, plated brass, and stainless...It is my understanding that brass dissipates heat better than stainless, but when carbon fiber drags were first introduced (dry), they had a tendency to abrade/strip the finish off washers made from plated brass..

Dry carbon fiber will never damage stainless, though it *might* have damaged solid brass, not sure on that...Obviously with either type there is no plating to be removed...My guess is that Penn engineers decided loss of heat dissipation was a non-issue and chose to pair their new HT-100 drags with stainless washers, rather than risk damaging the older brass ones..

Chad

[gstours]

My 2 cents worth;   brass is easier to machine, since its softer, also the strength factor is waay less. so a thicker washer is needed to be strong enough to be equal. History shows stainless steels that they came about long after the machining of brass parts (as did other alloys and titanium).
  The factorys seem to favor more stainless steels now that they have better tooling and machines to work with the more difficult to machine material.....
  Lastly the thinner stainless steel heat treated when surface ground are very flat, strong and available to the consumer.     gst.

[sdlehr]

Sid,
No scientist stuff from me. The truer the metal drag washers are against the carbon fiber, the smoother the drag will be.
Same reason we put all the other stainless in our reels. Tougher than brass and will maintain its shape under a heavier load.

I get that, Baron, but I can't see the metal washers in a conventional Penn being subjected to bending stresses. They rotate between drag washers in a plane (or in the case of Versa drag stay stationary while the CF washers rotate), and the forces on them might actually prevent deformation.... I've not seen an old Penn with a deformed brass washer - maybe they do exist. I haven't see that many.

Dry carbon fiber will never damage stainless, though it *might* have damaged solid brass, not sure on that.. My guess is that Penn engineers decided loss of heat dissipation was a non-issue and chose to pair their new HT-100 drags with stainless washers, rather than risk damaging the older brass ones...

It might be that the brass is abraided by the newer CF washers. If so, this would make all the difference, and woud be a great reason to use SS!

[swill88]

Doesn't the metal washer need to be thin to get a 5 or 7 stack.  SS can be thin.

[sdlehr]

I'm waiting for Sal to find this thread. His would likely be the final word here.

Sid
SE FL

[foakes]

Carbon fiber (CF), as it came into common usage -- were initially put in dry -- and they would/could bend, distort, or score the brass drags.  Same with the plated over brass -- that was done to try and eliminate the brass washers becoming rough with usage.

Sometimes salt gets into the stack -- and could score or grind the soft brass surface even more.

SS drag washers are stronger, sometimes thinner for a 5,7, or 9 stack application.  They will not bend or distort under a heavy lockdown usage.  They are perfectly flat -- particularly if they are flat-lapped, and not punched out leaving a tiny ridge.

When used with a drag grease like Cal's -- a set of CFs and SS flat-lapped drag stack will likely hold up for life -- if just serviced after each season of use.

Plus, of you look at a used brass washer vs. a used SS washer under a microscope -- you will  usually notice a major advantage regarding the smoothness of the SS surface compared to the brass.

Heat dissipation is not a big factor either way -- they both are good conductors of heat -- and will pretty much equally dissipate the heat out through the main gear.

So in short -- smoothness, best match for the superior CFs, longest lasting, less prone to corrosion, excellent with a liberal amount of drag grease, and a better all around drag performance.

Just my opinion

The experts on this subject are Alan, Bryan, Sal, Dawn.

Best,

Fred

[Alto Mare]

Not that I want to disagree with you Fred, stainless steel washers do bend.
On smaller reels with the 5-60 & 5-155 gears, I still use brass, I haven't experienced any issue with them.
A 10lb reel will do just fine with those, so if anyone is getting rid of the brass washers, send them my way.
Sal

[cbar45]

There are different grades of brass, just as there are different grades of stainless...I once tried putting carbon-fiber drags in one of those French-made Luxor 300's that used a single brass metal washer...It ended up abrading the brass no matter how smooth I polished the metal; drag grease didn't seem to help either and I ended up going back to stock which was smooth enough...Never tried pairing carbon fiber with Penn brass washers, but given the softness of brass it's understandable they would use the more durable stainless..

Chad

[Alto Mare]

I see your point, but as stated above I have no issues using the penn brass washers and carbon fiber washers with a touch of Cal's in my smaller reel.
I use both stainless steel and brass on those, depends which I have at that time.
My larger reels only get stainless steel washers, some will also get titanium, but only when I get a hold of some.



Sal

[cbar45]

I see your point, but as stated above I have no issues using the penn brass washers and carbon fiber washers with a touch of Cal's in my smaller reel. No brass paint on those at all.

Sal

Good to know, I wasn't sure if you were running them dry as Penn did or greased...I had a pair of Daiwa BG-90 spinners which used a combination of stainless and bronze (not brass) washers, also a Templar 500 that used phosphor bronze...No problems with greased CF on those and both were super smoooth..

[cbar45]

My larger reels only get stainless steel washers, some will also get titanium, but only when I get a hold of some.



Sal

Look forward to your feedback on titanium alloy if you haven't already posted it on here...That sounds like the ultimate for a reel seeing extensive use in the salt, going long periods of time before ever seeing service; even stainless will corrode given the right conditions..

Chad

[alantani]

naw, brass is fine!