Salmon canning time again.

[jigmaster501]

Chile,

The problem with CBOT is that it is the most deadliest foodborne pathogen on Earth and home canning is the cause of over 90% of the deaths associated with it. People who recover from CBOT, the rare ones, usually take at least a year to recover without being able to move or speak but they can hear everything that goes on and feel all the pain as their nerve endings regenerate throughout the entire body. Being a regulator, I am fortunate/unfortunate enough to see videos of survivors, deal with illness investigations and see things that would make everyone here want to live off distilled water and crackers.

Some people have no problems with home canning and those who haven't had a problem should have their recipes analyzed by a process authority to determine what parameters they are using are working so those processes could be shared with others. In the realm of home canning, keeping secrets can kill those who don't know the secrets. Those here canning need to share scheduled processes (approved by a process authority) like we share info on reels. Even if we all had to pay to access a page on this site to offset the costs of the process authority reviews, it would greatly benefit all who are home canning.

When something goes wrong, it is usually a slight change in process or a substitution of an ingredient or just a different brand. Using salt from different companies can yield different weights of salt per volume just on how the salt crystals are formed.  Just a bit too little salt can leave a process without adequate control. Same with vinegar, big difference between 4 and 5 percent acidity.

Listen to your Father In Law, seafood and mushrooms are difficult to can. Mushrooms dispersed in a can via machine versus mushroom dispersed in a can via the human hand can have different densities which affect the heat penetration. There was a CBOT outbreak just because of this problem. I am sure your father in law can share more on this topic with his vast experience in the industry.

I would like to see if I could find a process authority to get on this board, someone who fishes and like reels would be a plus, to see if we could ensure the safety of all here.

[Dominick]

Steve-O those make me miss my last care package from a friend.
Several jars of smoked, canned salmon with jalapenos.  They were so frikkin good.

Jigmaster,
You're a canning killjoy.  
I know you're just cautioning people, thanks for caring, but you did the same spiel last year IIRC.
Like others we sometimes can and have never had a problem.
My FiL was the cannery manager for the LDS Tuna cannery in San Diego back in the tuna fishery days, and he was a plant manager for Monterey Mushrooms...  He is a PITA to have around when home canning.

Chile I guess you are going to ignore both Jigmaster and your father-in-law.  It sounds like they are giving the same advice.  Maybe you should listen to the advice.  One time in a hundred is still one time too many when it affects your health.  Dominick

[Alto Mare]

At the moment ( early August ), most Italians are making tomatoes jars, myself included. I'm sure other parts of the world are doing the same. Kids get involved with the adults, it is very important to let them participate. We've been canning all our lives, I'm still here to talk about it.
Some of the problem here might be with the crap they add, to get their nice looking crop. All our stuff is grown naturally.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, just putting out my two cents. If we get deep into it we won't leave the house, well maybe that won't work as well, the roof might cave in

[conchydong]

 I have never "canned" but if you had a bad seal or something that would spoil the product, wouldn't you be able to smell it when you opened the jar? Just curious.

[ChileRelleno]

Steve-O those make me miss my last care package from a friend.
Several jars of smoked, canned salmon with jalapenos.  They were so frikkin good.

Jigmaster,
You're a canning killjoy.  
I know you're just cautioning people, thanks for caring, but you did the same spiel last year IIRC.
Like others we sometimes can and have never had a problem.
My FiL was the cannery manager for the LDS Tuna cannery in San Diego back in the tuna fishery days, and he was a plant manager for Monterey Mushrooms...  He is a PITA to have around when home canning.

Chile I guess you are going to ignore both Jigmaster and your father-in-law.  It sounds like they are giving the same advice.  Maybe you should listen to the advice.  One time in a hundred is still one time too many when it affects your health.  Dominick

Danged straight we ignore the family Patriarch, even Mom ignores him, or shoves him out of the kitchen when canning.
You can only get lectured so many times before it simply goes in one ear and out the other.

[El Pescador]

Steve-O those make me miss my last care package from a friend.
Several jars of smoked, canned salmon with jalapenos.  They were so frikkin good.

Jigmaster,
You're a canning killjoy.  
I know you're just cautioning people, thanks for caring, but you did the same spiel last year IIRC.
Like others we sometimes can and have never had a problem.
My FiL was the cannery manager for the LDS Tuna cannery in San Diego back in the tuna fishery days, and he was a plant manager for Monterey Mushrooms...  He is a PITA to have around when home canning.

Chile I guess you are going to ignore both Jigmaster and your father-in-law.  It sounds like they are giving the same advice.  Maybe you should listen to the advice.  One time in a hundred is still one time too many when it affects your health.  Dominick

I agree Dominick!

Even a mild case of Botulism could cause one to take off ones shirt and run around SHIRTLESS ALL DAY

Wayne

[Dominick]

Like Curley says yuk yuk yuk.  Dominick

[jigmaster501]

This is the most important topic on this board and we should keep quiet about it.

Nothing else on this board other than a heart attack from fighting fish with high drags will kill someone faster than improperly home canned foods.

There are critical factors that provide safety. What are they??? How are they being met? How far above the critical levels does your process go to ensure safety. This is what a scheduled process will provide so there is no guesswork. Take the procedures that are being done for generations and have them validated.....

These vital pieces of information need to be shared here.

Take a look at Sal and the canned tomatoes (don't get mad Sal..lol). Tomatoes are normally an acid food with a pH well below 4.6. When canned under normal canning procedures with a hot fill, you have a pretty safe product that will have an equilibrium pH of (4.7 or less) 4.7 is the critical limit in tomato based products as opposed to 4.6 in other (ACIDIFIED PRODUCTS)  Natural, unnatural, etc, etc, mean nothing..

Substitute heirloom varieties or new breeds of tomatoes with pH levels that are much higher. Now what... a product that was normally safe for generations will now kill you and all of the no one ever got sick for 100 years will not help anyone. A grandmother making sauce with new store bought tomatoes ( you don't know the varieties) will not know this without using a pH meter on her sauce. For generations her family didn't need a pH meter but now you do..... See the point..... She passes out her sauce to family for the holidays and they all go home and eat it... BOOM.. You just wiped out an entire family.......

Keeping quiet and hoping for the best with home canned food will only kill someone on this board.... Then what.. It is too late then. FDA sets the limits on canned foods at levels that will protect all. Those limits worked since 1972 when the LACF (21 CFR 113) ACIDIFIED FOODS (21 CFR 114) regulations came out. Before that it was a free for all and the potato soup outbreak changed that....

Lets not even get on the home picked mushroom thing. That is just as bad.... A mushroom that is safe to eat in NY will not be safe to eat in say MI because of differences in soils, minerals, etc. Only locally trained mycologists can determine that.

I am not saying don't eat home canned foods. Find out what the critical factors are for the individual products being produced so you know what you need to achieve to produce safe products. Without knowing that, it is only guesswork.... We have the opportunity here to potentially share validated procedures to produce excellent home canned products just the same way everyone is providing knowledge to each other on reels....

We are all spending thousands of dollars on reels that we might use a few times per year but we can't invest money into validating procedures that many people here are using to make food that provide hundreds of meals throughout the year.....

I am not here to insult anyone or play down anyone's experience but we need to keep this dialogue going with validated science that will allow us to develop a canning knowledge base for all to benefit from and not potentially make deadly mistakes....

[David Hall]

Just read a great cdc article on an outbreak from home canned potatoes made into potato salad and served at a church potluck dinner, 70 plus people diagnosed, one death and many severe treatments. This was in 2015.
Can't copy and paste on my iPad or I would have posted it, reading further it appears to me most cases as in this case were caused by improper canning and basic food prep,  home canned potatoes prepared in a boiling bath, not a pressure cooker, then opened and never heated prior to making the salad. 
  I remember my grandmother telling me when I was helping her with canning how serious the process is, whe told of an uncle who loved to make sausages, right up till he and his brother both died from them.  I paid attention I learned enough to follow the process as she taught me.  Even if I had never read a book on home processing she had it dialled in.  I still can my own goods but always in the back of my mind is following proven scientific established processes.  So far so good and I hope to continue doing so. 
Jigmaster may be a PITA by constantly reminding us but I am glad his voice is here for us and his experience speaks volumes.  CBOT is a disease you never want to experience and it can be transmitted by simply tasting something, you don't have to eat a plateful, one bite is all it takes, blurred vision, shortness of breath, difficulty breathing, muscle weakness, paralysis, death.  48-72hrs after consuming contaminated food. 
Keep posting your home canned goods Steve, it's awesome, I know you're following proven procedures as does everyone that  I accept home canned foods from.  Even though grandma always said never look a gift horse in the mouth I always ask when friends offer me home canned goods, how long you been canning? 

[Alto Mare]

Get a grip and read the books that are published about canning. If you are so paranoid about it don't can. You go on and on and don't say anything. Did you ever hear of Ball's Blue Book Guide to home canning? Guys like you have a lot to say about nothing. Do you trust the FDA? How are the statistics on the FDA inspected foods?

Don't make me laugh about a subject you know nothing about yet you espouse information that you can not substantiate. I wouldn't be answering this post normally but this crap has gone on long enough. Your are a fear monger!

Joe   

Joe, we need to be fair here, Eugene is only trying to help. Yes I see it as you do, simply because I've been canning my all entire life and never had any issues.
His information is very important though, is it going to make me stop jarring tomatoes? no, I don't believe so. But, it is still good information and he's only trying to help.
I have friends that do some serious jarring, I don't do that many, but some do over 600 jars of tomatoes a year.

Let's all try to get along here, if you don't like what Eugene is putting out, simply don't listen and keep canning as you are.  

Eugene, I'm not upset, why would I be, you're only trying to help?

Sal

[Alto Mare]

You are reading it wrong Joe, i never said you're the bad guy, I actually agreed with you at the top of my comment.
Eugene is entitle to post his information as he likes, it is up to us if we want to follow or not, but we should not criticize him.
This goes for everything else that goes on on this site, it is fine to disagree, but we need to do it in a good way.

I personally have no issues with you or Eugene.

Sal

[conchydong]

While I respect what Eugene has to offer with his expertise in the field, I agree with Joe, I have eaten canned products (not by me), sashimi, sushi and ceviches pretty much all of my life without problems. I try to take precautions but you cannot realistically have all of your raw or canned food tested by professionals. Common sense should prevail like all other aspects of life. Have I had a case of the chits? Sure but I cannot attribute it to a certain meal. I am also of the old school train of thought that it is good to build up antibodies to certain bacterias, even if you have to suffer a little in the beginning. How come the Mexicans don't get sick by drinking their water but we do? We are becoming a weak people and would not survive in the wild if we keep going the way we are.

[sdlehr]

Eugene is right. He's not just talking about a few hours of distress in the bath room. Some folks only get one opportunity to eat improperly-canned food. It's worth doing right, and if you're not going to spend the time doing it right don't give your canned foods away to others - if you want to put yourself at risk that's your business, but don't risk harm to others.

Joe, you have said there are no experts, only people who think they are. It would be nice if you practiced what you preached. I'm getting tired of your intolerance to others, myself included. We don't have to agree, but let's disagree politely.

Sid

[Steve-O]

We don't watch TV at our house so we're pretty much missing the Olympic Games.

Seems like a few more exciting rounds of the Canning Games have occurred here over the weekend.

Erring on the side of caution has been an idiom I've lived by for many years.

That said, I've had 3-4 near death drowning experiences, a near death bout with psittacosis ( and now that I've it can't catch it again, nor do I care to)  several severe bouts with pneumonia, a few car accidents which could have easily been fatal, a lightning strike and close encounters with bears in Alaska....which by my reckoning puts me close to 7-8 of my 9 cat lives used up.

As far as home canning goes my Mom always did it correctly, my wife always has and my few times canning salmon have also been successful. I follow the rules, am safety minded, prepare everything carefully, use sanitized crack and chip free American Made canning jars, new seals and rings, etc. If a jar doesn't seal we take proper action. When in doubt we throw it out. Same for any store bought, factory canned in steel, foodstuffs.

Now as far as this thread goes, I appreciate everyone's input and especially what Sid just said "We don't have to agree, but let's disagree politely."

If the moderators feel anything is out of line, please nip it in the bud.

Steve

[Steve-O]

Joe,

no apology needed at all...as I stated...I appreciate all the input.  Plus, I don't feel you hijacked the thread either.

anyone could have said  "let's disagree politely" ...it just happened to be the post above mine by Sid.

i also think Eugene has very valuable input regarding the paramount importance of safety in canning foods. I even started second guessing my recent canning session after reading his input but still feel confident I did it right.

so it's all good


BTW- I use the Ball publication for canning and also these.  The last one - hunting chef - has a discrepancy regarding headspace when packing the fish into the jars. He says leave 1/4 inch. Others mostly say leave 1 inch space. I subscribe to the latter so the lid doesn't get pushed off during the process and gets a good seal.

The first one covers it pretty well, IMO.

https://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/hec/FNH-00128.pdf
https://www.gopresto.com/recipes/canning/seafood.php
http://www.simplycanning.com/canning-fish.html
https://huntingchef.com/2011/11/13/how-to-can-fish-in-a-pressure-cooker/