How much temsion to appply to braid when spooling a baitcaster

[Jim Dempsey]

I have several different style bait caster reels. I use Sufix 832 on all of them. On my low profile Revos; I use #40 Ghost braid. On my 7000 CS's I use low-vis green #65. On my 10000's, I use low-vis #80.

It seems like I get different options - even arguments when I try to Google it for a sensible answer. Surely; someone here has some formula that makes sense. Obviously; I've tried different methods, but seem to always either wind up with line that's too dug in the spool, or bird nest. Tried spooling it wet and dry. Doesn't seem to be a common sense method. Counting on the experience amassed here.

A little help?

Thanks!

[Tiddlerbasher]

Tension when spooling braid is the most important thing. Dependent upon the drag of your reel - for a baitcaster try and apply 7-10lb of drag when you spool. Get as close to 10lb as you can - it all depends on the reel and your spooling method. I've never found wet or dry makes a much difference, just my 2c.

[bill19803]

my   2 cents  worth    some drag is    good  more  is better    too  much is  just  right.  If   you   squeeze  it on the  spool and  it  gives  its  not   enough    should be  hard  when  squeezed.

[Bryan Young]

8-10# would be best or the max drag of the reel. The line should never dig in if I fish with less than maximum of the drag of the reel.

[jurelometer]

The problem is there are lots of opinions, but most folks don't always have the time to explain their reasoning.  

My belief is that high tension spooling is not a great idea.  The high tension cannot be maintained when the reel is in use.  So unless you are going back to the line winding machine after a big fish takes a a bunch of line,  it is better to select a reel/ line diameter/crossover pattern that works with the tension that the line will be packed when the reel is used.  

I could be wrong here (esp for big game reels, I have no experience with gel spun on big game reels).   I am curious if there are good  arguments against my practice.

The reasoning:

The amount of tension you need is going to vary based on the diameter of the line, the amount of drag you are using, and the amount of crossover applied when winding. Anything extra is unnecessary.

Gel spun polyethylene (spectra/dynema) braid  has very little stretch.  It will actually contract with heat, according to one manufacturer.   The goal is to pack the line with enough tension and crossover to prevent the line from digging in and binding for the drag settings you will use.  With a levelwind or spinning reel  the amount of crossover is built in, but on a regular conventional reel, you have a choice.

One thing that folks sometimes forget is that however tight it is wound on in the shop, it will be different in the field.  

This is what I do for non-big game reels:  I pack the reel around the max expected drag setting until I reach about 8 lbs of tension.   I never load a reel over 8 lbs of tension even though I will use a drag setting over that.   If I'm going on an important trip, or feel unsure, I will  try a test  ( run off a hundred yards at full drag, rewind by hand, test again.   To be honest,  I haven't done this test in years.  I do try to be a bit aggressive in my crossover with manual conventional reels.  If I get binding, I  change my crossover pattern, increase my line diameter, or try a different reel.

The theory is that if you need more tension than your drag setting to prevent binding, you will be screwed after the  first time you drop a fish with a bunch of line out.  Even without dropping any fish, you will always be winding in at something well below the tension of the drag setting.

It is my experience that if you do get binding, it will happen lower in the spool after using the reel for awhile.  This happens to me with fly reel backing which is hard to pack well.   After dropping a fish with a lot of line out,  winding in then landing more fish, I end up with a tight pack over a loose pack, and get some binding.   Not fun, but it usually works out.  This happens more on the reels with 50 lb backing, not so much  with 65 lbs.

That's my contrarian view for what it is worth.   The best counter to my argument that I could think of is that getting deep into a spool is a rare and special occurrence, so you want to optimize for that one big fish.  For me - I optimize to hook lots of jumbos on every trip

Regarding packing wet:  Water  is a very effect solvent for salt and mixing saltwater with freshwater will eventually equalize in salinity.  I would think wet line might  wick more salt deeper into the spool. That is if you are fishing saltwater.

-J

[Jim Dempsey]

The problem is there are lots of opinions, but most folks don't always have the time to explain their reasoning.  

My belief is that high tension spooling is not a great idea.  The high tension cannot be maintained when the reel is in use.  So unless you are going back to the line winding machine after a big fish takes a a bunch of line,  it is better to select a reel/ line diameter/crossover pattern that works with the tension that the line will be packed when the reel is used.  

I could be wrong here (esp for big game reels, I have no experience with gel spun on big game reels).   I am curious if there are good  arguments against my practice.

The reasoning:

The amount of tension you need is going to vary based on the diameter of the line, the amount of drag you are using, and the amount of crossover applied when winding. Anything extra is unnecessary.

Gel spun polyethylene (spectra/dynema) braid  has very little stretch.  It will actually contract with heat, according to one manufacturer.   The goal is to pack the line with enough tension and crossover to prevent the line from digging in and binding for the drag settings you will use.  With a levelwind or spinning reel  the amount of crossover is built in, but on a regular conventional reel, you have a choice.

One thing that folks sometimes forget is that however tight it is wound on in the shop, it will be different in the field.  

This is what I do for non-big game reels:  I pack the reel around the max expected drag setting until I reach about 8 lbs of tension.   I never load a reel over 8 lbs of tension even though I will use a drag setting over that.   If I'm going on an important trip, or feel unsure, I will  try a test  ( run off a hundred yards at full drag, rewind by hand, test again.   To be honest,  I haven't done this test in years.  I do try to be a bit aggressive in my crossover with manual conventional reels.  If I get binding, I  change my crossover pattern, increase my line diameter, or try a different reel.

The theory is that if you need more tension than your drag setting to prevent binding, you will be screwed after the  first time you drop a fish with a bunch of line out.  Even without dropping any fish, you will always be winding in at something well below the tension of the drag setting.

It is my experience that if you do get binding, it will happen lower in the spool after using the reel for awhile.  This happens to me with fly reel backing which is hard to pack well.   After dropping a fish with a lot of line out,  winding in then landing more fish, I end up with a tight pack over a loose pack, and get some binding.   Not fun, but it usually works out.  This happens more on the reels with 50 lb backing, not so much  with 65 lbs.

That's my contrarian view for what it is worth.   The best counter to my argument that I could think of is that getting deep into a spool is a rare and special occurrence, so you want to optimize for that one big fish.  For me - I optimize to hook lots of jumbos on every trip

Regarding packing wet:  Water  is a very effect solvent for salt and mixing saltwater with freshwater will eventually equalize in salinity.  I would think wet line might  wick more salt deeper into the spool. That is if you are fishing saltwater.

-J

This is actually more comprehensive than any explanation I've read to date. By and large; it passes the sanity test, too. I just wound 3 10000 reels this week with #80 Sufix braid with 1200 yards of line. I have callouses on my fingers like a guitar player and tendonitis. I backed the spools with electrical tape for a number of reasons. I still don't think I had the consistent oomph to maintain a consistent drag on the line while winding. Sounds like I'm going to have to find a big place to unwind the better part of each one and re-do it. None of the spools have any give to them, but they're sure not wound like a clock spring either. A couple of circles would unwind when I was done. I taped them down with electrical tape to maintain (hopefully) tension.

Thank you very much!

[alantani]

here's what i do.  i figure out what the drag will be set at, then i set the tension for the braid to somewhere between 50 and 75% of the drag range.  as an example, an avet sx will hold 300 to 350 yards of 65 pound solid braid.  if you use a 30 pound topshot, then you would typically set the drag to 30% of that topshot, which would be 9 pounds, then take 50-75% of that 9 pounds, say 5-7 pounds, and that is the tension that i would use for the braid.  

alternatively, let's look at a penn 50 vsx or makaira 50 two speed.  you might load it with 600 yards of 130 pound braid and a 130 pound topshot.  your drag setting might be 45 pounds.  that means the braid needs to be loaded with up to 30 pounds of pressure.  my winder can do that.  very few others can.  

[Cor]

Round 2008 I did some experimenting with braid and made some notes for myself.    I repeated the experiment during November 2013 and again decided that braid does not work for my type of fishing.
Despite that I have now been fishing solely with braid for about 3 years, using baitcasters and have had a fair measure of success.

I dont think that tension on the spool has an impact on this issue and maybe this information is not relevant to this discussion.

FIRELINE TEST RESULTS
This product has recently become available in South Africa.   I heard and read some very good comments about it, and decided to see if it could be used for my type of fishing.


FISHING STYLE
I spin fish for Yellowtail, often make 100's of casts in a day and often fish in strong side wind


OBJECTIVE
The objective of this exercise was to test the product through actual use;
1.   Determine the suitability for the type of fishing I do, and
2.   The economic viability of using this product.

1.   SUITABILITY
•   Casting ability
•   Ease of use
•   Durability
•   Abrasive qualities
•   Knot strength

2.   ECONOMIC
•   Durability
•   Loss of fish through line failure
•   Other non quantifiable benefits
•   Confidence
•   Ease of use

3.   RESULTS & OBSERVATIONS
•   It burns off from thumb friction when casting
•   Becomes woolly after use and sticks to reel more and more
•   Can lose rod & reel from fish take or bad cast
•   Too limp,
•   gets stuck in guides when casting
•   Gets pulled in to "wrong side of reel"
•   Very bad in side wind
•   gets worse as braid gets "wooly" and the stiffening compound wears away
•   Wind resistance is more then mono when "woolly"
•   Nightmare to  clear  tangle
•   Abrasive qualities not good
•   Not durable – expensive
•   Cuts your fingers like ...$h@#!   Need to use a level winder or coffee!



23 November 2013
I repeated this test of about 5 years ago, with similar results and conclusion.

In an attempt to find a better casting solution for my long rod I again attempted to use braid on a conventional reel.   I was also told the line  "technology" is now far superior.
For this test I used Jerry Brown 80 lb hollow core.


CONCLUSION
Not much has changed at al and the only benefit to continue with it is its strength, and the fact that it does not get damaged as easily as mono and perhaps less wind resistance!!
•   New braid cast far better then old...... it has some more body because of whatever they put on it, but wears away after a few 100 casts.
•   the reel makes a significant difference.   A firm cast control (mags) is essential and a level winder will also make it much easier.
•   I was able to cast well with it when doing this deliberately and carefully, and after laying line nicely on reel, but as soon as I had to retrieve fast,  or when concentrating more on fish then on laying the line or hard or whatever...... trouble!
•   As the braid got limper, it became much more difficult to use.

This is the main issue:-
On a conventional reel the spool spins faster and peels off line faster then the distance required by the casting weight, leaving some loose coils of line on, or in front of the spool.   With mono this is good but has to be controlled to avoid backlash.

Braid is too limp, and tends to "stick" to the reel.   If you hold 20cm of mono by the end it bends in a slow curve, or its fairly "stiff" whereas if you do the same with braid it hangs  nearly straight down, it is completely limp, unless its still new.   So with mono the reel will "push" the line away from the reel providing a much greater margin of error.    Braid will not get pushed away and adhere to the spool and quickly get pulled to the "wrong side"...... Bang!

The way to avoid it is to keep tension on the line when casting braid, cast harder and more directly towards the target, use tight cast control settings, use a heavier casting weight, don't cast high and rather not in to the wind and cast using the rods "sweet spot"
By doing so you lose any possible casting benefit from the thinner line.

So, don't use braid for spin fishing on conventional reels.

The manufactures need to stop bragging about how "limp" it is, give it some Viagra or stiffer threads and it will work.

[day0ne]

Per Jerry Brown:

http://www.bhptackle.com/pages.php?pageid=36

[jurelometer]

here's what i do.  i figure out what the drag will be set at, then i set the tension for the braid to somewhere between 50 and 75% of the drag range.  as an example, an avet sx will hold 300 to 350 yards of 65 pound solid braid.  if you use a 30 pound topshot, then you would typically set the drag to 30% of that topshot, which would be 9 pounds, then take 50-75% of that 9 pounds, say 5-7 pounds, and that is the tension that i would use for the braid.  

alternatively, let's look at a penn 50 vsx or makaira 50 two speed.  you might load it with 600 yards of 130 pound braid and a 130 pound topshot.  your drag setting might be 45 pounds.  that means the braid needs to be loaded with up to 30 pounds of pressure.  my winder can do that.  very few others can.  

Hi Alan,

This makes sense to me for long range fishing.  Basically you are packing the line with roughly the same tension that will be used in the field under load.   As long as you play the fish hard, you will be using around the orginal  tension on anything big enough to take a bunch of line.  What do you recommend in the case where you drop a fish with a bunch of line out and have to wind in without much tension?

On small boat deep drop fishing, you can drift pretty fast and  often end up in situations with a lot of line out and little tension.   Even tangles or breakoffs can cause this. This is why I think it is important for this type of fishing to ensure that your setup does not rely on high tension winding  to avoid the line digging in and binding too severely.   


Re Cor's comments on casting spectra.  On my last trip, I used one of those fancy new mag cast reels (no levelwind) for the first time  to toss big poppers.   I could not make it  overrun at first, pure bliss.  About 100 casts later,  nothing but bird's nest and potty mouth.  I was using 50 lb braid.   Folks that do the same kind of fishing say a levelwind will work better.    Everything that  Cor described about casting GSP is what I experienced.

Re  the Jerry Brown paper referenced by day0ne:  I am a bit suspicious about some of the claims.  It doesn't have to be Spectra.  Spectra is just a trade name.  The quality of materials and manufacturing process is what makes the difference.  A lower grade spectra is unlikely to be better than a higher grade dyneema and vice versa.   Regarding heat, GSP is supposed to be annealed at around 130C,  so I wonder if lesser amounts of heat on a thermoplastic would be a problem.

One thing that was not mentioned was the effect of creep.  If kept under high tension for long periods of time, GSP fibers will creep and lose some strength.  Even though GSP does not stretch much, friction from the adjacent wraps will help hold the tension, so I think there is at least a theoretical argument that spooling under high tension has some downsides.   I just got a 1000 yard spool of 50 lb Diawa j-braid.   Even though they know it will be used to spool fishing reels,  it is not packed very tight.   Hmmm...

[jurelometer]

The problem is there are lots of opinions, but most folks don't always have the time to explain their reasoning.  

My belief is that high tension spooling is not a great idea.  The high tension cannot be maintained when the reel is in use.  So unless you are going back to the line winding machine after a big fish takes a a bunch of line,  it is better to select a reel/ line diameter/crossover pattern that works with the tension that the line will be packed when the reel is used.  

I could be wrong here (esp for big game reels, I have no experience with gel spun on big game reels).   I am curious if there are good  arguments against my practice.

The reasoning:

The amount of tension you need is going to vary based on the diameter of the line, the amount of drag you are using, and the amount of crossover applied when winding. Anything extra is unnecessary.

Gel spun polyethylene (spectra/dynema) braid  has very little stretch.  It will actually contract with heat, according to one manufacturer.   The goal is to pack the line with enough tension and crossover to prevent the line from digging in and binding for the drag settings you will use.  With a levelwind or spinning reel  the amount of crossover is built in, but on a regular conventional reel, you have a choice.

One thing that folks sometimes forget is that however tight it is wound on in the shop, it will be different in the field.  

This is what I do for non-big game reels:  I pack the reel around the max expected drag setting until I reach about 8 lbs of tension.   I never load a reel over 8 lbs of tension even though I will use a drag setting over that.   If I'm going on an important trip, or feel unsure, I will  try a test  ( run off a hundred yards at full drag, rewind by hand, test again.   To be honest,  I haven't done this test in years.  I do try to be a bit aggressive in my crossover with manual conventional reels.  If I get binding, I  change my crossover pattern, increase my line diameter, or try a different reel.

The theory is that if you need more tension than your drag setting to prevent binding, you will be screwed after the  first time you drop a fish with a bunch of line out.  Even without dropping any fish, you will always be winding in at something well below the tension of the drag setting.

It is my experience that if you do get binding, it will happen lower in the spool after using the reel for awhile.  This happens to me with fly reel backing which is hard to pack well.   After dropping a fish with a lot of line out,  winding in then landing more fish, I end up with a tight pack over a loose pack, and get some binding.   Not fun, but it usually works out.  This happens more on the reels with 50 lb backing, not so much  with 65 lbs.

That's my contrarian view for what it is worth.   The best counter to my argument that I could think of is that getting deep into a spool is a rare and special occurrence, so you want to optimize for that one big fish.  For me - I optimize to hook lots of jumbos on every trip

Regarding packing wet:  Water  is a very effect solvent for salt and mixing saltwater with freshwater will eventually equalize in salinity.  I would think wet line might  wick more salt deeper into the spool. That is if you are fishing saltwater.

-J

This is actually more comprehensive than any explanation I've read to date. By and large; it passes the sanity test, too. I just wound 3 10000 reels this week with #80 Sufix braid with 1200 yards of line. I have callouses on my fingers like a guitar player and tendonitis. I backed the spools with electrical tape for a number of reasons. I still don't think I had the consistent oomph to maintain a consistent drag on the line while winding. Sounds like I'm going to have to find a big place to unwind the better part of each one and re-do it. None of the spools have any give to them, but they're sure not wound like a clock spring either. A couple of circles would unwind when I was done. I taped them down with electrical tape to maintain (hopefully) tension.

Thank you very much!

Hi Jim, 

Glad to help,  always wonder if these long winded replies are more helpful than annoying.

The last few winds are always going to flop around.  Before resorting to refilling  the reel why not set the drag with a scale, tie the line to a post and pull off a bunch of line and see if you get any bad binding?  If you  are wearing out your fingers to load a levelwind, you probably have plenty of tension already. 

-J

[Tiddlerbasher]

A while ago I built a line spooler with an adjustable drag. I experimented with various drag settings - partly to test the braid, partly to test the line spooler. The findings were quite simple below 5lb drag the amount of braid you can fit on a given spool is reduced. Above 10lb of drag the amount of fitted line doesn't increase.
In fact I could not measure any difference (in line capacity) between 8 and 10lb drag. I experimented up to 20lb of drag with the same result. My conlusion was that by applying 8-10lb drag the minimal stretch of braid is removed. Therefore any thing more than 10lb of drag is not necessary. My experiments were done on 50 and 65lb Fireline braid. A different braid may behave slightly differently - but if it's PE (dyneema, spectre etc) it won't be that different imho.

[Keta]

Jerry Brown recomends 10# and is what he spools the line he sells.  Ten pounds works for me too.

[Tiddlerbasher]

Perhaps something else I should have mentioned.
Before spooling the reel I re-spool the supplied braid (at 10lb drag) onto a heavy duty industrial spool that I know can take the tension and is a custom fit on my line spooler. This also ensures there are no under wraps.

[Rancanfish]

I suppose all this applies more to tuna fisherman? 

I have only loaded reels with one of the cheap plastic spoolers that clamp to the rod.  With tension between rags or whatever was handy to add a little tension.  I have never had an issue.  I guess ignorance is bliss.

Jurelometer's statement of 'ending up with loose windings over tight windings,' after a fish has run off a bunch of line, echo what my thoughts always were.