Drag slipping in cold weather

[alantani]

Carbon fiber has a weave, like a fabric.  Hard carbon looks like pencil lead, no texture.

hey, shouldn't you be packing for someplace exotic like hawaii, or tahiti, or bora bora?  you work too hard, young lady!  you've earned yourself a nice vacation!!!!!!

[aqua71]

Please take it apart and take closeup photos and post here.  Dominick

The drive shaft washer is the only non-carbon fiber washer from the set of (4) four washers.



The other (3) three washers which appear to be carbon fiber (to me) look like this:

[richard]

Aqua 71.   Are you 100% sure that the reel is tripping back into gear when its got cold ? There is normally a slight click or clunk as you go to wind in.
Just noticed on the stripdown of a similar reel that the owner had to modify part of the trip mechanism to make it work properly. Could the cold be freezing this mechanism temporally .I reserve the right to be completly wrong 😊

[aqua71]

Aqua 71.   Are you 100% sure that the reel is tripping back into gear when its got cold ? There is normally a slight click or clunk as you go to wind in.
Just noticed on the stripdown of a similar reel that the owner had to modify part of the trip mechanism to make it work properly. Could the cold be freezing this mechanism temporally .I reserve the right to be completly wrong 😊

Yes, the reel is absolutely positively 100% tripping back into gear!

[Dominick]

After seeing the photos I am absolutely stumped.  There is no obvious reason for the slippage.  Keep working on getting to the bottom of the problem.  Maybe someone will come up with an answer.  Dominick

[Gfish]

This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?

[sdlehr]

If this is the right schematic one of your carbon fiber washers should be different from the other two. Did you mix them up? Not sure how this would affect function. The drive shaft washer functions as a thrust bearing.

[Dominick]

This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?

Gfish, you might have the answer.  If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags.  The drags look dry in the photos.  Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice.  I to find this interesting.  Dominick

[sdlehr]

This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?

Gfish, you might have the answer.  If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags.  The drags look dry in the photos.  Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice.  I to find this interesting.  Dominick

That's why I asked if it happened when the reel was cold + wet, but was told that it did the same when dry so I dropped that line of questioning.

[jurelometer]

Assuming the handle is not going backwards, the anti-reverse slipping cannot be the issue.  And the schematic for the SV103HL-103XSL  shows a clutch dog as well.   If the drag is not tightened until the reel is exposed to the cold, it is possible that the AR bearing or adjacent part is frozen to the shaft and the clamping load is not transferred until the reel warms up.  Easy enough to test by setting the drag before exposure to cold. If it now holds the drag after froze-  this is the problem.

Drag disks seem to be an unlikely culprit-  if the drag pressure is lost or resumes gradually, than this is a strong indication that the drag disks are the culprit.  Again by setting the drag in advance and testing as the reel gets colder and then warmer, if the slipping comes and goes all at once, it makes the drag stack a much less likely candidate.  Greased drag surface failures due to temp changes should be gradual and not 100%.  BTW, removing visible grease still leaves a coating that will affect friction.  I would expect that greaseless  has a better chance of locking up vs slipping, as any water can get deeper into all the little crevices before freezing.  

Line slipping on the the spool- weirdly enough, gel spun actually expands as it gets cold, increasing the chance of a line slip.  But if you are experiencing zero drag,  you would see that the spool is not turning at all (a little piece of tape on the spool side wil help as a visual aid) while the line turns.  It is easy to get visually fooled when all the line is turning in a chunk- it really looks like the spool is turning.   Probably (not definitely), the slipping should come and go gradually with temp changes.

Which leaves us with something not going fully into gear when you flip the lever.  Lots of parts involved here, but something that would allow it to flex, but not break when frozen is the best guess.  If the slipping goes directly between  zero and 100% all at once, this one gets my vote.


The trickiest problems for me come  when I make an observation that is mostly correct, but  keeps me from following the evidence.  If you haven't done so yet, it might be worthwhile to throw out any conclusions and walk through  the symptoms.

For example,  when you see that the AR bearing is working fine,  how do you know it is working fine when the reel is frozen and not working properly?  And when the reel is going in and out of gear when frozen, just because there is a "thunk" and the the bar pops up,  it does not mean that the reel is completely in gear. How certain should we be  that the gears are  actually fully engaged inside a frozen reel without an x-ray?

I think that you might be able to narrow down  by using your freezer and  observing if the symptoms come and go all at once,  and if the problem shows up  during freezing while in gear, but before you put the reel in free spool.  Each possible mechanical problem should have slightly different symptoms.

Hope this helps,

-J

[aqua71]

This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?

Absolutely not. The drags are slipping before I even take my first cast. I took one of the reels apart and removed the grease from the drag stack (pictured) and reassembled the drag stack DRY (because I assumed the factory grease was the culprit). I also made sure there was no moisture anywhere inside the reel before putting it back together. On my following trip the drag on that reel slipped (just like initially) before I even took a cast, so there's zero water getting in there.

If http://www.daiwa.com/us/service/manuals/image/baitcasting/SV103HL-103XSL.pdf is the right schematic one of your carbon fiber washers should be different from the other two. Did you mix them up? Not sure how this would affect function. The drive shaft washer functions as a thrust bearing.

That's correct, one of the washers is different than the other two, and no, I didn't mix them up although I doubt that would make a difference.

[oldmanjoe]

If http://www.daiwa.com/us/service/manuals/image/baitcasting/SV103HL-103XSL.pdf is the right schematic one of your carbon fiber washers should be different from the other two. Did you mix them up? Not sure how this would affect function. The drive shaft washer functions as a thrust bearing.

I would double check , Have ran into this with not thick enough drag washer and a keyed washer bottom out with a gap between the two.

[Gfish]

This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?

Gfish, you might have the answer.  If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags.  The drags look dry in the photos.  Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice.  I to find this interesting.  Dominick

That's why I asked if it happened when the reel was cold + wet, but was told that it did the same when dry so I dropped that line of questioning.

Yeah, my idea was stolen outta your and philaroman's posts, Sid.

Kinda sounds like the low temps. are condensing somethin on the drag stack and not allowing it to compress, even though feels like it is...?

[sdlehr]

This's one a the most interesting "who done it"(i.e., "what's doin it"?)issues I've read about in a long time. Could water be gettin down into the drags while fishin, then freezing, then thawing-out after fishing and leakin out a the spool in warmer temps. before you can detect it?

Gfish, you might have the answer.  If Aqua71 is taking a fishing reel from a warm house and then out in the cold then ice may be forming on the drags.  The drags look dry in the photos.  Now that the reel is apart and dry Aqua71 might try putting the reel out in the cold trying to avoid temperature extremes and see if it does the same, though I would think that when the reel is slipping out in the cold friction should melt any ice.  I to find this interesting.  Dominick

That's why I asked if it happened when the reel was cold + wet, but was told that it did the same when dry so I dropped that line of questioning.

Yeah, my idea was stolen outta your and philaroman's posts, Sid.

Kinda sounds like the low temps. are condensing somethin on the drag stack and not allowing it to compress, even though feels like it is...?

I bet it  turns out to be some mechanical error, this isn't the first fishing reel to be used in below freezing temperatures.....

[aqua71]

I bet it  turns out to be some mechanical error, this isn't the first fishing reel to be used in below freezing temperatures.....

I think you're 100% correct. I've fished under freezing conditions for decades and I have NEVER experienced this type of an issue. At this point I'm very confident I've eliminated all the possible causes with the obvious exception of ONE. Unfortunately that ONE cause has me baffled. In any event, please keep the suggestions coming. Thanks.

Sal