My thoughts on todays spinners

[Midway Tommy]

I guess it is about a person's temperament and mindset...

well, yeah...  pretty good bet that in this bunch everyone ENJOYS working on reels

I really enjoy working on and servicing most spinning reels, but since I'm an old school dude I'm pretty selective about the circa of the reels I'll work on. I've only worked on a couple of reels newer than the mid '90s. After those experiences I opted out of working on anything newer than around 2000. Heck, I've even refused to work on a select few older than 2000. IMHO most of those I've looked at are pretty much just Asian made junk looking for a burial site.     

[Finest Kind]

I guess it is about a person's temperament and mindset...

well, yeah...  pretty good bet that in this bunch everyone ENJOYS working on reels
imagine[with diffuculty ] someone who DOES NOT , yet enjoys their high-paying job
few extra hours of work they like, allows 'em to replace reels without ever looking inside,
much less worrying about premature obsolescence & parts availability

Terrible to contemplate. People like that don't know what they are missing.

[Reeltyme]

I work on whatever my customer brings through my door. I am currently servicing 2 year and a half old Daiwa spinners. WOW, didn't know they could fit that many bearings in something that small! My train of thought, the more moving parts may equal a smoother ride, but it also increases the chance of a breakdown, and they do. I truly enjoy working on and servicing reels of all kinds, it's kind of like therapy without paying out the big bucks! This doesn't change my original statement, new reels just won't last.

[johndtuttle]

Fact of the matter is that a Penn 704 was a high end reel bitd.

Even now, manufacturing a 704 to that level would make it a $300+ reel made in USA, maybe $199 offshore. No one buys them at those prices.

If you buy a Daiwa Crossfire its a miracle of die and tooling for $25. Utterly reliable for the vast majority of freshwater fish (the majority of the fishing market).

What's the point? In 1950's dollars what we get for $99-$199 is actually amazing. Its more the mis-application of say, carbon/plastic reel bodies to the winch 'em in style of pro bass blasters that blows up reels or the complete neglect of reels in the salt.

In my opinion, the makers are competing tooth and nail to give the consumer exactly what they want and doing a remarkable job.

Try the Penn Battle DX (5000 size ~$160). All metal body, brass gears and all sealed bearings. Re-pack the bearings with marine bearing grease and with any kind of additional care should last a very, very long time. Fishes way better than a 704 with faster retrieve, instant AR, better casting and better drag.

Its a better reel than a 704, for most people's fishing, yet costs less in 1950's dollars. What's not to like? 

[Reeltyme]

Its a better reel than a 704, for most people's fishing, yet costs less in 1950's dollars. What's not to like? 

Well, again, the new reels are smooth and I'm not sure I agree with you dollar conversion rate, that would require more than a guess, but I can say with certainty that the newer reels will not last anywhere near as long as the old ones. I still think the conversion rate is off as well. I'm not sure the manufacturers are giving the consumer what they want so much as ""our research" has found that this is better and you need this" is more the mentality, and in my opinion, the cost of today's reel is stupid. A recent trip to a small local sporting goods store surprised me, every reel of every brand was $200 +/-! Except for a slight difference in color, every reel looked exactly the same, and probably is. Kind of like today's autos, all the same. But again, this is only my opinion.

[johndtuttle]

Its a better reel than a 704, for most people's fishing, yet costs less in 1950's dollars. What's not to like? 

Well, again, the new reels are smooth and I'm not sure I agree with you dollar conversion rate, that would require more than a guess, but I can say with certainty that the newer reels will not last anywhere near as long as the old ones. I still think the conversion rate is off as well. I'm not sure the manufacturers are giving the consumer what they want so much as ""our research" has found that this is better and you need this" is more the mentality, and in my opinion, the cost of today's reel is stupid. A recent trip to a small local sporting goods store surprised me, every reel of every brand was $200 +/-! Except for a slight difference in color, every reel looked exactly the same, and probably is. Kind of like today's autos, all the same. But again, this is only my opinion.

Sorry, I was way off. Its even worse!

For the price of a 704 in 1960 you could buy a "super spinner" Stella or Saltiga today. These reels are shockingly more advanced than reels of yore.

"$100 in 1960 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $1,027.46 today, an increase of $927.46 over 63 years. The dollar had an average inflation rate of 3.77% per year between 1960 and today, producing a cumulative price increase of 927.46%.
https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1960
U.S. Inflation Calculator
https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1960
Value of 1960 dollars today | Inflation Calculator"

The price of reels like the Daiwa BG or Penn Battle III that are around $100-150 today would have been around $10-$15 or less in 1960 (approximately when the 704 was introduced).

They are vastly more fishable reels imo (drag and retrieval speed), IF, a little less tough. Better for Braid, instant AR, far better distance casting.

Remember, I'm the guy that wrote the service tutorial here for the 704Z. I know what they can and can't do. They aren't going to land 100# GTs or 200# tunas like the top spinners today can. People today are looking for something that fishes better than the old reels. I even get my Jigmaster on, still, every once in a while and will tell you flat out for $99 the Penn Warfare is a much more capable and tougher geared reel and more of a pleasure to fish. Old spinners are fun, nostalgia reels. But, as above, for the money today there are more capable options.

[JasonGotaProblem]

I'm going to reintroduce a counterpoint that has been offered before, but is still relevant.

If memory serves a 704 has like 10# max drag on a good day. That's like an abrams tank with a 22LR main gun. I would bet that any of these maligned modern spinners would also last forever if they never saw more than 10# of drag. And I would love to see how a 704 (with a heavily modified drag) would fare after after a few years of use at 20-25# of drag. Probably not bad, because its sized (and priced) like a tank. but I'd be amazed to not see some resulting wear.

Putting words in someone's mouth for the sake of argument: "but 25# drag is not what the 704 was designed for"

And does that make it a better reel, a lesser reel, or should we be comparing it to maybe the 1000 size battle 3 not the big one? After all, similar design loads. Let's not get into weight difference.

[Midway Tommy]

Interesting how this discussion has evolved from a general opinion of run of the mill reels that the average Joe can afford to a comparison between two specific decades apart models from one reel maker. 

[Reeltyme]

Interesting how this discussion has evolved from a general opinion of run of the mill reels that the average Joe can afford to a comparison between two specific decades apart models from one reel maker. 

Tommy, It's just that, a difference in opinion. Nothing wrong with that. You and I are both old school guys that enjoy making a 40 to 50 year old reel still perform. I still stand with my "opinion". I think the newer reels are overpriced for what you get. By the way, just received this in the mail today.
This is what I'm talking about,,expensive reels that don't hold up.

[foakes]

Here's one —-

Why do modern spinning reels have 9 to 13 bearings?

——————————————————-

Because a graphite/plastic/Tupperware reel frame with plastic parts needs those bearing to operate.

And the marketing guys turn that feature into a selling point of how many bearings their reels have.

But the nature of a graphite/plastic frame only allows perhaps 2 or 3 disassembles and services before the cheap self threading screws become impossible to snug up because the holes are now distorted.

But with plastic reels —- 2 or 3 services is about all that is possible, generally —- since plastic breaks, and companies do not generally stock parts after a few years, anyway.  And if they do —- a couple of parts cost more than a new reel.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion that works for them.

Best, Fred

[JasonGotaProblem]

To be clear i have nothing against older reels. Even before my trip to the panhandle I think I owned and fished more reels that are older than me than younger than me (I'm 36). Now the new reels are definitely outnumbered.

But if we try to argue that older reels are categorically better than new reels, we have to admit we are stating opinion not fact, and that's ok. And if we try to argue the opposite, we need to admit the same. And thats also ok.

There were crap reels in the 60s, and there's plenty of crap reels today.

[jurelometer]

I don't know if they actually need all those ball bearings in newer reels. It is just that they are cheap nowadays,and customers value a large ball bearing count. They are situations where they handle misalignment slightly better than plain bearings (AKA bushings)- but I suspect it is just cheaper to design, and easier to sell.

I would argue that differences from "classic" to "modern" are mostly in form factor and repairability.   Newer reels have sizing, spool geometries, crosswinding and drag stacks to accommodate braid.  But their hasn't really been any breakthroughs in design.

The roller clutch/one way bearings are a new feature, and are popular, but functionally don't do that much for you, and are one of the most common failure points. 

Support, especially long term support, managing parts manufacturing, inventory and delivery is quite expensive for the reel company, and has to get factored into pricing.  A reel with the same basic capabilities, but a limited useful life can be offered at a lower price point.  And few reels are used enough to actually wear them out.  Folks would rather buy a new $90 reel than pay $50 to get a $300 reel fixed. 

Same for many manufactured products nowadays.  In constant dollars, products back in the day were so expensive that repair was justified.  Nowadays, many products are so inexpensive that repair is no longer the obvious value that it used to be, especially if you have to pay for shipping and labor because you are not going to do it yourself, and there is no local repair shop.

There are sentimental and practical reasons (like reliability) to prefer more robust and repairable gear. but for the majority of the marketplace, they are getting what they want, or in some cases what they think they want

There are old reels at attractive price points that can still get the job done today, especially if you fish them old style- monofilament and lighter drag settings.  But the form factor and sometimes the functionality will not be ideal for braid.  And for fishing, braid often provides an advantage.

But if you are going to drop me on a desert island with a single spinning outfit, I would probably sleep better if it was an old Penn.

-J

[johndtuttle]

But if you are going to drop me on a desert island with a single spinning outfit, I would probably sleep better if it was an old Penn.

-J

And there, we have no debate. If simplicity and robustness are the metric then a 704Z is the "desert island spinner of choice". And I famously said the same about the Baja Special, one reel to rule them all...on a desert island.

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

[Reeltyme]

[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.
[/quote]

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.

[Donnyboat]

I agree with you Randy, a bloke gave me a Diawa Saltist LTD 6500, he tried to get the screws of off the cover, they are all counter sunk alan key screws, plastered with lock tyte, he could not get the last one out, so he sent it back to Diawa, & they told him there is nothing they can do with it, & sent it back, ( my opinion they should have swapped it for him ),, he gave it to me & said if I cant do any good with it to keep it for parts, so I tried several things to get the alan key to unscrew, with out any luck, including, in & out of the freezer, also holding a soldering iron on it, still know luck, also heat via a heat gun, as the screws are counter sunk about 1/4 of an inch, there was know way to cut a groove with a dremmel, to unscrew it, so my last option was to chizel the conver of, it cracked @ the screw then came apart, I think I maybe able to stick it back together after I fully service it,I am about to cut a groove in it with the dremmel now to see if it will in screw, why they have to use locktite I dont know, just worn the buyers to check the screws often to keep them firm would be the best option, keep well cheers Don.