My thoughts on todays spinners

[johndtuttle]

[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.
[/quote]

No, my friend. That time has past. There is nothing they can do that a modern 2-speed International/Makaira doesn't do vastly better. 

Except maybe sharking from the beach.

[MarkT]

I'm with John! Those old spinners in todays dollars weren't cheap. A relatively inexpensive salt water spinner like a Daiwa BG performs better than those old reels. My Saragosa's , Twin Power and Makaira are much better than that Daiwa. But then the 4 banger in my Honda gets more HP then the 289 V8 in the '67 Mustang I drove in college... and way better mileage!

[jurelometer]

[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.

No, my friend. That time has past. There is nothing they can do that a modern 2-speed International/Makaira doesn't do vastly better. 

Except maybe sharking from the beach, if that's your thing.

I don't think that I am living large enough.  All I saw the inside of in Panama was pangas with a single Yamaha 40 Enduro (sort of the Penn 704 of outboards).  The first thing that I packed each day was a GPS beacon. Those pangeros weren't afraid of a stretch of open  ocean.

But no eggbeaters for me.  I'll take a modern low-profile levelwind for tossing poppers at school tuna.

Agree with John on the  modern two speeds all the way for the grownup yellowfin. The classic conventionals have the same form factor tradeoffs that the classic spinners have.  And two speeds, ahhhh...

Nothing wrong with going old school on the gear, if that is your thing.

-J

[MarkT]

[quote author=johndtuttle link=msg=439531 date=1691021643

But if I step onto a charter in Panama to ride a center console with triple 300s on it 40 miles to the shelf for a day of battling monsters....those old Penns are gonna stay on the dock with the sailboat.

Your correct! No old spinners on that cruise. Penn Senator 4/0's and 6/0's for that! The older one's of course.

No, my friend. That time has past. There is nothing they can do that a modern 2-speed International/Makaira doesn't do vastly better. 

Except maybe sharking from the beach, if that's your thing.

I don't think that I am living large enough.  All I saw the inside of in Panama was pangas with a single Yamaha 40 Enduro (sort of the Penn 704 of outboards).  The first thing that I packed each day was a GPS beacon. Those pangeros weren't afraid of a stretch of open  ocean.

But no eggbeaters for me.  I'll take a modern low-profile levelwind for tossing poppers at school tuna.

Agree with John on the  modern two speeds all the way for the grownup yellowfin. The classic conventionals have the same form factor tradeoffs that the classic spinners have.  And two speeds, ahhhh...

Nothing wrong with going old school on the gear, if that is your thing.

-J

I like spinners/eggbeaters/coffee grinders for poppers! That 53" per crank with the TwinPower 14k and Makaira 20k is money! I've caught plenty of schoolies with the Saragosa 6k and 10k too, I just have to crank a lot faster between pops. Of course which popper to throw when is a whole 'nother discussion!

[Donnyboat]

With the Saltist LTD 6500, I now find there is a phillips screw in the main shaft, going across the reel & through the main gear shaft this screw is not moving, so maybe more locktite, I have heated it with the oxy, & its still not moving, I am also thinking it maybe a left hand thread, I have now cut through it with the dremmel, & am just waiting for aprentice patty to help hold it. cheers Don.

[johndtuttle]

With the Saltist LTD 6500, I now find there is a phillips screw in the main shaft, going across the reel & through the main gear shaft this screw is not moving, so maybe more locktite, I have heated it with the oxy, & its still not moving, I am also thinking it maybe a left hand thread, I have now cut through it with the dremmel, & am just waiting for aprentice patty to help hold it. cheers Don.

Handi2 is the guy you want to talk to about that screw. He owns and has serviced as many of the old Saltists as anyone. IIRC it's held by red loctite and heat is the only way to get it out but the threads are normal. As bad or worse is that you have to remove the right side bearing too to get the main gear out and that is a challenge too.

Handi2 (Keith) will tell you good things about the reel over-all, once a few things have been replaced (like the horrible hex screws on the body). He says they're unkillable after that plus a few other small and cheap substitutions. The old Saltist is a main-stay for popping from the beach in Mexico due to its relatively low cost and high speed retrieve.

The most recent BG suffers from corrosion problems with the pinion assembly (wide open to salt) and the main shaft is too light (reports of many bent shafts).

That Penn Battle III or DX is a tough little tank that should satisfy any old-schooler here. It could stand some tiny improvements in a couple of areas but otherwise is the true inheritor of the 704Z legacy, imo. Simple, all metal body and brass gears, sealed bearings. Should last a lifetime although I have to admit the brass alloy of the gears is probably not the equal of the 704z.

But far cheaper in 1960's dollars  .

[JasonGotaProblem]

With the Saltist LTD 6500, I now find there is a phillips screw in the main shaft, going across the reel & through the main gear shaft this screw is not moving, so maybe more locktite, I have heated it with the oxy, & its still not moving, I am also thinking it maybe a left hand thread, I have now cut through it with the dremmel, & am just waiting for aprentice patty to help hold it. cheers Don.

Handi2 is the guy you want to talk to about that screw. He owns and has serviced as many of the old Saltists as anyone. IIRC it's held by red loctite and heat is the only way to get it out but the threads are normal. As bad or worse is that you have to remove the right side bearing too to get the main gear out and that is a challenge too.

Handi2 (Keith) will tell you good things about the reel over-all, once a few things have been replaced (like the horrible hex screws on the body). He says they're unkillable after that plus a few other small and cheap substitutions. The old Saltist is a main-stay for popping from the beach in Mexico due to its relatively low cost and high speed retrieve.

The most recent BG suffers from corrosion problems with the pinion assembly (wide open to salt) and the main shaft is too light (reports of many bent shafts).

That Penn Battle III or DX is a tough little tank that should satisfy any old-schooler here. It could stand some tiny improvements in a couple of areas but otherwise is the true inheritor of the 704Z legacy, imo. Simple, all metal body and brass gears, sealed bearings. Should last a lifetime although I have to admit the brass alloy of the gears is probably not the equal of the 704z.

But far cheaper in 1960's dollars  .

John, we lost Keith to cancer back in April. Before he went, he generously passed down to me all of his collection that he didn't sell or give to family members.

Don, included in that is 2 old saltist 4500H in various states of disassembly. If any parts from those would benefit your project, let me know and you will see yet another benefit to my very slow shipping.

[johndtuttle]

Keith was a true resource to this community and very generously gave of his time and knowledge.

I am very sorry to hear of our loss and particularly for his family and closer friends.

[Donnyboat]

Thanks Jason, I will email you, cheers Don.

[johndtuttle]

Here's one —-

Why do modern spinning reels have 9 to 13 bearings?

——————————————————-

Because a graphite/plastic/Tupperware reel frame with plastic parts needs those bearing to operate.

And the marketing guys turn that feature into a selling point of how many bearings their reels have.

But the nature of a graphite/plastic frame only allows perhaps 2 or 3 disassembles and services before the cheap self threading screws become impossible to snug up because the holes are now distorted.

But with plastic reels —- 2 or 3 services is about all that is possible, generally —- since plastic breaks, and companies do not generally stock parts after a few years, anyway.  And if they do —- a couple of parts cost more than a new reel.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion that works for them.

Best, Fred

Fred I would never question your wisdom as it has proven to be sage over the years.

There was a time when bearing count became the buzz word for "quality" and it has persisted to this day though the rating on the seals is now the "buzz" ie IPX 5, 7, 8 etc.

All I can say in weak defense of the very low end plastic reels is that for the price ($25-50) they are truly disposable in today's dollars. One good service will also be enough in Fresh Water for many years of light use (like most gear gets).

Fact of the matter is that $100-150 is entry level quality for saltwater. There we are starting to see remarkably good products as tech for more expensive reels becomes cheaper in mass production and trickles down to the low end. Note: This is not a defense of graphite reel bodies and rotors. Mostly I have no use for them.

When Penn can finally afford the tooling for forged main gears we will enter further into a golden age for spinners. Arguably (at least I and some others would argue) we have entered a golden age for some time with the advent of the Shimano Stella and Daiwa Saltiga et al of the super spinners. They truly are amazing examples of the state of the art.

Best regards always,

John

[foakes]

Thanks, John —-

Same goes for your thoughtful responses.

My opinions on reels are basically what an average guy who enjoys the significance of fishing with old reliables —- can both afford and perhaps learn to service and repair themselves.

I have just moved into this little niche of mine by being fortunate enough to offer help, service, advice, and parts for a few certain top quality spinner brands from about the mid 50's through the late 80's.

This, after working on nearly every type of reel that came across the bench over the last 40+ years.

Top end spinners like the Stella's and other similar models are certainly for guys who can afford world-class trips and to exotic places. 

$1000 to $1300 is a far cry from a $50 to $200 Penn, DQ, ABU, or perhaps even a Mitchell.

And there are a lot of $200 to $300 big game reels on the market.

I just enjoy the nostalgia, history, superior materials, and dead-simple engineering of the solid reels from the golden age of spinners before they sold their souls to Asia.

And the high ends have their place when chasing those big uglies down in Panama or Costa Rica.

Here again —- lots of ways to approach our passions.

Best, Fred

[Midway Tommy]

John,
IMHO, ball bearings, and the number of them, became the "buzz word" and indicator of quality only to those that didn't, and still don't, understand the quality and concept of oilites. Personally,  I would much rather have a spinning reel with one ball bearing on the pinion, and maybe one on the line guide, and five or six oilites at the other strategic locations than a spinning reel with eight or ten ball bearings. I have yet to see an oilite wear out, even in fifty or sixty year old heavily used reels, but I see ball and roller bearings all the time of that age that need replacement. It's actually a shame that oilites are seldom, if ever, seen on new reels.

The multiple ball bearing phase/fiasco started in Asian made reels of lesser quality materials so that they appeared to be as smooth and as high of quality as reels that contained oilites in strategic locations. Not exactly sure why, but maybe Japan didn't have decent access to oilite material back in those days, but the ball bearing craze continues on to this day.

Maybe someday a smart reel maker will go back to oilites where they best work. 

[MarkT]

I hate ball bearings at the base of the gear sleeve on many small reels. They sit in a sump and easily rust/corrode. A good brass bushing would be better in that location. But, you pick up a reel in the store, turn the handle, express that it's so smooth, buy it... victory! They've accomplished their goal!

[JasonGotaProblem]

I think what happened was for other spots in the reel they forst downgraded to nylon bushings in those spots. But those sucked, so the upgrade was to go to ball bearings.

Not a spinner but my bantam 100 is running bushings not bearings, and I kinda like it that way. It still spins free enough for me to get a ratnest if I'm distracted.

[Reeltyme]

An interesting update on the Shimano I just posted pictures of that I received in the mail. 3 bearings in the reel, the 2 located at each end of the handle are a little "gravely" feeling and main bearing at the end of the pinion is frozen. I prefer my greenie.