Assistance with 114H Rebuild

[Brewcrafter]

Fen - All good tips from some very knowledgeable Ohana.  You had asked about shielded vs. non-shielded bearings.  Let me start by linking one of Alan's original bearing tutorials https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=13.0
For my own $.02 on bearings, first the shields.  A lot of folks ditch them since they can trap moisture within the bearing.  Myself?  I pretty much take a "it is what it is" approach since I stay on top of my own stuff so I don't go out of my way one way or the other.  What I will say next (and others may differ) also can influence that decision -
Grease vs. oil.  General wisdom is "grease for gears and drags, oil for bearings".  I tend to look more at the overall use of the reel.  And I can tell you in my personal 114 and 114H reels the bearings are greased, because no way, no how am I ever going to be attempting to cast one.  Mine are used as trollers or bottom fishing rigs, and these are both applications where the extra drag of grease in the bearings should not affect performance, but will give an enhanced degree of protection against water intrusion.  And generally greasing is easier without shields (and Alan also has designed a great bearing packer that works great, shields or no shields, but definitely really only necessary when you are doing a lot of reels.)  Going for maximum casting distance when bombing irons or live bait?  Then a quality oil will probably be a better choice.  Keep us posted on your progress, those early Senators are great reels, a good value overall, and good ones to learn on. - john

[Keta]

I generally grease pinion bearings on lever drag reels, oil for all other bearings

For a casting reel take off the shields and service often. For trolling and bottom fishing reels, like Brewcrafter posted, grease and replace the seals.

Alan's bearing greasers are nice, if you start doing more reels they are a good investment.

BTW, nice boat and a common higher end boat in SE Alaska.

[Maxed Out]

 Lots of great bearing oils out there. For me, I'm an oddball. I use 10-40 motor oil on my bearings with shields left on. It's never let me down....yet.

 Ok you guys, now I'm ready for a beat down

[Fen]

Hello All, just a couple updates and a question.

The hybrid bearings arrived today.  They have a soft orange seal that can be removed so you can grease them if you want.  I am going to run them with oil as recommended and see how they do.  I will post any problems on the thread.

Here is some literature on the bearings and their part number:







It is interesting to me that they have "special stainless steel" which their website lists as "X940 Stainless".  I could not find any information on this alloy but there is an extremely corrosion resistant 904 stainless that is a super 316 as far as corrosion resistance is concerned.  It appears that all 900 series stainless steel alloys have this property. Perhaps that justifies the increased cost of the bearings.

Just some stuff on the alloy:









Now, the question.  I received the parts from Mystic today.  All are just as I ordered, however, the pinion gear seems to be different than the original.  The original has a steel band around the circumference while the new one does not:



They both have the same OD and fit into the reel.  I am wondering if this is a design change since the old design looks inherently flawed or do I have the incorrect part? I have an email in to Mystic but I haven't heard yet so I though I would ask here. This does, of course change the gear ratio since the new pinion gear has more teeth(18 vs 16) which changes the gear ratio of the reel from 2.9 to 2.6.  I gues this will help me crank up those big halibut😊.

Any thoughts on this pinion gear?

Thanks!
Mike

[OhReely]

Hi Fen,
The 18 tooth pinion without the reinforcing ring is for a 114 Senator and is used with a 38 tooth main gear for a ratio of 2.1:1. The 16 tooth pinion with the reinforcing ring is used in the 114H Special Senator with a 46 tooth main gear for a ratio of 2.875:1 which is sometimes listed as 2.8:1 and other times listed as 2.9:1. I don't believe the two pinions are interchangeable.

You're reels are Special Senators so you need the 16 tooth pinion.

If you ordered from Mystic maybe you didn't scroll down far enough in the list of Senators. Go down to original Special Senators. Or perhaps they sent the wrong pinion. Either way maybe they will exchange it as long as it hasn't been used.

Edit: I'd like to see a picture of the main gear that was turning that pinion. I can't believe it's not damaged also.

[Keta]

Here's a link to Mystics 114H page.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Penn114H.aspx

The pinion gear you need is a 13-114H.
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/13-114H.aspx

The main gear is a 5-115
https://www.mysticparts.com/PennParts/Parts/5-115.aspx

[Fen]

OhReely & Keta, thank you!  You prevented me from making a big mistake with my overhaul.  It was my fault, I ordered the wrong pinion gear.  I was on the "non-special" Senator parts list/diagram.  Fortunately only two of the dozen or so parts that I ordered from the wrong parts list have different part numbers: the pinion gear and the under-gear fiber washer.  I have re-ordered both.

Interestingly, my reels both have Handle Side Bearings with 114HL stamped on them but the reels seem to be more consistent with the non "L" diagram.  Fortunately I don't think I need to figure this out since this does not affect the pinion gear or under gear fiber washer that I need. I ordered the 13-114H Pinion Gear and the 4-115 Under Gear Fiber Washer.

OhReely, you wanted to see the Main Gear, so here it is😊:







I think it is in very good shape so I didn't order a replacement.

Thanks again to both of you!

Fen


A picture of myself and two of my fishing buddies*:





*not really, but this is the way I picture us😊

[OhReely]

I agree on the condition of the main gear teeth but the top of the gear where the earred washer sits looks pretty badly worn. Not sure the ears will stay engaged with the gear under stress. You would probably lose 30-50% of your drag resistance. But I guess you'll find out. I believe the "L" was used to identify reels that came from Penn with an aluminum spool instead of the chrome over brass/bronze wire line spools. You will see "114HL" on frames, reel boxes and other parts but not on side plates, to indicate lightened Senators. In the case of frames it doesn't make a difference but parts I just don't know.

Since I mentioned frames, your frames appear to be graphite and in my opinion the better of the two types of graphite half frames I've seen. Yours have a SS sleeve that slides over the front edge of the frame to protect it from wire and braid line. There is another version that uses a post fitted into a groove in the front of the frame. No mechanical attachment of the frame to the side plates and rings at that point.

Your frames should have seven screw holes in each side. They may or may not have threaded brass inserts in those holes. No matter either is fine with the proper screw. So what's my point?


Inner rings have eight screw holes
Side plates have eight screw holes
Outer rings have five screw holes

My opinion again, you're giving up strength if those three screws (six total) are missing. Two solutions - replace the outer rings with those having eight holes or put flat head screws through the side plates that will fit under the outer rings without interference before assembling with the outer rings.

I'm no engineer but the Senators were designed and tested by fishermen not bean counters. Anyone know if a Chinese made Senator ever set a record

[Fen]

OhReely, thanks again for your input!

I emailed "Mo" at Mystic and told her my error with the pinion gear.  She indicated that they would accept the return if the gears are in original condition😊.

I will respond to your last post in italics:

I agree on the condition of the main gear teeth but the top of the gear where the earred washer sits looks pretty badly worn. Not sure the ears will stay engaged with the gear under stress. You would probably lose 30-50% of your drag resistance. But I guess you'll find out.I am pretty sure you are referring to the vertical grooves in which the ears of the ss washer fit.  If that is the case I think they look worn only because it was not a good photo.  Here is a photo with an eared washer in place:






I think it is a pretty close fit and don't believe it will give me any problem.


 I believe the "L" was used to identify reels that came from Penn with an aluminum spool instead of the chrome over brass/bronze wire line spools. You will see "114HL" on frames, reel boxes and other parts but not on side plates, to indicate lightened Senators. In the case of frames it doesn't make a difference but parts I just don't know.  OhReely, I looked at the Parts Lists and Drawings for the 114H and 114HL and compared them:





The parts highlighted in green on this 114HL drawing are parts that differ from the 114H.  It looks like the spools have the same part number.  The differences between the two seem to be in three areas: the stand, the frame and the number of screws on the side plate/frame.

Since I mentioned frames, your frames appear to be graphite and in my opinion the better of the two types of graphite half frames I've seen. Yours have a SS sleeve that slides over the front edge of the frame to protect it from wire and braid line. There is another version that uses a post fitted into a groove in the front of the frame. No mechanical attachment of the frame to the side plates and rings at that point.

Your frames should have seven screw holes in each side. They may or may not have threaded brass inserts in those holes. No matter either is fine with the proper screw. My frames have four holes on each side; three with threaded inserts, one without a threaded insert.


So what's my point?


Inner rings have eight screw holes
Side plates have eight screw holes
Outer rings have five screw holes

My opinion again, you're giving up strength if those three screws (six total) are missing. Two solutions - replace the outer rings with those having eight holes or put flat head screws through the side plates that will fit under the outer rings without interference before assembling with the outer rings. Good thought but since my frames have only four holes the additional flat head screws would have no where to attach on the frame.

OhReely, thanks again for your input, I am learning something with each post!

Fen

[OhReely]

Yup that gear looks good to go.

The half frame in the 114HL drawing would have a decal stating aluminum one piece frame 114HL. Those frames have 7 holes per side and the SS stand is fastened to the frame with 4 screws. There are two versions of the stand, thick and thin. But I believe the 114HL was also sold with 2 aluminum bars and one post or with 5 posts, both had the usual stand. The spool was the reason for the "L".

The graphite frames I've seen have either 7 holes per side with a protective sleeve on the front edge of the frame or 3 holes per side with a thinner post at the front edge of the frame nestled in a recess in the frame. A standard size post is used at the top and the stand is riveted to the frame. Now I've learned there is a 4 hole frame.

You know I really appreciate that you provide feedback. I wish more people would do that. EXCHANGE of INFORMATION. I can surely use all the help I can get.

Thanks,
OR

[Fen]

OhReely, not that you don't believe me but here is a photo of the four hole graphite frame😊:



Three of the holes have threaded brass inserts.  The fourth hole under the ss protective sleeve does not have an insert.  I can only speculate why they left the fourth hole without a sleeve and it might be because there just isn't enough graphite material in that position to accommodate one.

As far as feedback is concerned,  I would be crazy not to since I am learning a great deal from guys that have, "forgotten more than I will ever know" about reel repair-thanks again!

Fen

Now, of course, a photo:

[Keta]

The insert has come out and the frame is not useable as is. I might have a useable frame but will have to look.  If the ones I have are missing inserts I will pull a insert out and send it to you to epoxy in place.  I am heading to my shop in a hour or so

[Fen]

Hi Keta, that is very nice of you but I think there is a chance that this position was intended to be without an insert.  The reason I say this is that all four of the forward positions of the two bodies I have are without inserts, the holes are threaded, and the holes are not countersunk like there had been an insert that had been lost.  I don't think this is Penn's greatest engineering achievement, especially since you can see one position is cracked, but I do think it is likely that this is the way my bodies were built:







Thanks again,
Fen


BTW, as you can see, I share your tackle affliction:

[OhReely]

Fen,
I have no reason to not believe you. I honestly never saw a 4 hole graphite frame before. Looks like you have a handle on things. Good luck with the rest of the build.

[oldmanjoe]

This may help , Ace hardware has nutserts or you can drill for a reel bar .
    A little Ca glue for the crack .