Penn Fathom vs. Shimano Torium

[dchfm123]

Ok, so I was looking to buy a few new reels and was set on the daiwa saltist until I did a little research and found out that they had some internal flaws.  I have now decided its gonna be a Fathom or a Torium.  Help me choose.  Which one is better, pros and cons.  I am leaning towards the fathom, it seems to be a better casting reel and has a better drag system.  Is this true?  Which do yall prefer.  Any input will be appreciated.  Ty.

John

[alantani]

have you looked at the shimano tld star 15/30?  http://alantani.com/index.php?topic=17.0

[CapeFish]

What type of fishing do you do? The fathom comes with double anti-reverse dogs and has a much larger AR bearing than the Torium. It has a free floating spool like a lever drag so it spins like crazy but there is an adjustable cast control to tame it. Line capacity wise there is little difference between a Fathom 40 and Torium 30. A torium with carbontex most certainly has a much more potent drag than a fathom. I have both reels and the Torium has proven itself, I did upgrade it though as per AT prescription, spring loaded anti reverse etc. Unfortunately I have not picked up any big fish on the Fathom which is really the ultimate test. I suspect though I may have to do some thumbing of the spool if a fish heads for Australia. Out the box the fathom is very nice and it is more compact than a Torium. If I get a chance I will test the casting performance and see if the Fathom casts further than the Torium. One concern on the fathom though is if saltwater will find its way into the inside of the spool if the reel gets dunked.

[Joker]

I have all three, Saltist 30BG, Fathom 30 and the Torium14,20&30.

Each reel has its application. My Saltist 30BG casts well. I like the robust paint work.

The fathom is spooled with .45 XX and some 48lbs braid. As mentioned above the spool is free floated. Spins forever. It has a centrifugal system to tame it helps me.  So far I am very happy with its performance. I caught a few good sized Spotted Gully Sharks. I have an issue with the AR bearing, though.  Seems like they were supplied with inferior AR bearings. Rust has affected it. That's due to our wading and then casting.  Still need to change mine.

The Torium14 is spooled with .40 XX and that little monster has landed some awesome fish. Biggest 6,6kg Steenbras. I normally pair it with a 11', 12' or 12'6" rod.

Torium20 and 30 have been "souped" as per AT tuts. The Tor30 has landed a few good sharks biggest being a 80kg Bronze Whaler Shark from the beach.

With the Toriums, we find that the reel seats can become corroded. Nothing that a good rinse and spray won't cure.

[Jeri]

Hi,

Your original quest started with a Saltist, and now looking at Torium and Fathom models. The common thread with all these models, is that they are all middle of the range models for the various manufacturers, and they all share the trait that they are mass produced beyond the country of origin of the parent company – they are built in either China, Malaysia or Vietnam.

This is perhaps the crux of the matter, they are not subjected to the high quality control inspections or tighter tolerance control of components of reels that are made in the countries of origin of the parent companies. Diawa and Shimano build their top range models in Japan, as they probably are prepared to suffer the higher labour costs to offset the much higher specification products that they are producing at home. I don't know whether Penn actually produce their top of the range models in the USA any more, but I would suspect that the quality control levels in production of their Fathom reels is not likely to be the same as in high tolerance models.

Toriums in my experience have all the design faults that were in the early Trinidad models, while none of the accuracy of production. Fathoms I have found to be overly complex internally, and although not requiring the after-market enhancements of the Toriums, they do have a few problems. We have seen frames crack and problems with bearings.

The point is that in all reels that are being looked at for quite high speed spool usage – like surf casting, the issue is one of near perfect alignment of spools, shafts and bearings. Whether this can realistically be achieved with castings, rather than say CNC machining of solid billets, I defer to the mechanical engineers on this forum. However, from personal experience, all the models of reels that I have tried which have been build by CNC machining, have been by far faster than any model with 'cast casings and frames' – some even too fast for my casting abilities.

So, in conclusion if you are looking for the absolute perfect reel, avoid looking in the middle range models, look towards the upper end of the market for top flight surf casting reels, the input of engineering into the manufacture is very much higher, which will lead to better potential spool speeds for casting. However, be careful what you wish for, as you might end up with something that is too fast for your skills, and like the Trinidad 'A' series, with no spool control apart from your thumb.



Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[fastfishin85]

you oughta look into the new release reel,the sg,not much more than the reels above and your getting a lot more for your money,it is lever drag,if that dosent bother you versus the star drag of these reels,for the 250.00 bucks I think your getting a lot more than what any of these other reels bring to the table,furthermore any of the three reels(saltiest,torium,fathom)are good reels with a little tinkering and good maintenance,theres no reel that is indestructible,everyone has there own personal preference,i have personally had cheap reals that have outlasted my more exspensive ones,maybe you outta just get a decent used one outta the three,modify it to your liking,and see how that works,youll save yourself some money and get the satisfaction of using a reel that you upgraded,good luck to ya and let us know which one ya choose and how it works out for ya

[Black Pearl]

Hi,

Your original quest started with a Saltist, and now looking at Torium and Fathom models. The common thread with all these models, is that they are all middle of the range models for the various manufacturers, and they all share the trait that they are mass produced beyond the country of origin of the parent company – they are built in either China, Malaysia or Vietnam.

This is perhaps the crux of the matter, they are not subjected to the high quality control inspections or tighter tolerance control of components of reels that are made in the countries of origin of the parent companies. Diawa and Shimano build their top range models in Japan, as they probably are prepared to suffer the higher labour costs to offset the much higher specification products that they are producing at home. I don't know whether Penn actually produce their top of the range models in the USA any more, but I would suspect that the quality control levels in production of their Fathom reels is not likely to be the same as in high tolerance models.

Toriums in my experience have all the design faults that were in the early Trinidad models, while none of the accuracy of production. Fathoms I have found to be overly complex internally, and although not requiring the after-market enhancements of the Toriums, they do have a few problems. We have seen frames crack and problems with bearings.

The point is that in all reels that are being looked at for quite high speed spool usage – like surf casting, the issue is one of near perfect alignment of spools, shafts and bearings. Whether this can realistically be achieved with castings, rather than say CNC machining of solid billets, I defer to the mechanical engineers on this forum. However, from personal experience, all the models of reels that I have tried which have been build by CNC machining, have been by far faster than any model with 'cast casings and frames' – some even too fast for my casting abilities.

So, in conclusion if you are looking for the absolute perfect reel, avoid looking in the middle range models, look towards the upper end of the market for top flight surf casting reels, the input of engineering into the manufacture is very much higher, which will lead to better potential spool speeds for casting. However, be careful what you wish for, as you might end up with something that is too fast for your skills, and like the Trinidad 'A' series, with no spool control apart from your thumb.



Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

Hi Jeri,

You stated that you have seen frames crack and problems with bearings. Are they PENN Fathom reels?

If so, I know that PENN would like to see that problem.

[Joker]

Hi,

Your original quest started with a Saltist, and now looking at Torium and Fathom models. The common thread with all these models, is that they are all middle of the range models for the various manufacturers, and they all share the trait that they are mass produced beyond the country of origin of the parent company – they are built in either China, Malaysia or Vietnam.

This is perhaps the crux of the matter, they are not subjected to the high quality control inspections or tighter tolerance control of components of reels that are made in the countries of origin of the parent companies. Diawa and Shimano build their top range models in Japan, as they probably are prepared to suffer the higher labour costs to offset the much higher specification products that they are producing at home. I don't know whether Penn actually produce their top of the range models in the USA any more, but I would suspect that the quality control levels in production of their Fathom reels is not likely to be the same as in high tolerance models.

Toriums in my experience have all the design faults that were in the early Trinidad models, while none of the accuracy of production. Fathoms I have found to be overly complex internally, and although not requiring the after-market enhancements of the Toriums, they do have a few problems. We have seen frames crack and problems with bearings.

The point is that in all reels that are being looked at for quite high speed spool usage – like surf casting, the issue is one of near perfect alignment of spools, shafts and bearings. Whether this can realistically be achieved with castings, rather than say CNC machining of solid billets, I defer to the mechanical engineers on this forum. However, from personal experience, all the models of reels that I have tried which have been build by CNC machining, have been by far faster than any model with 'cast casings and frames' – some even too fast for my casting abilities.

So, in conclusion if you are looking for the absolute perfect reel, avoid looking in the middle range models, look towards the upper end of the market for top flight surf casting reels, the input of engineering into the manufacture is very much higher, which will lead to better potential spool speeds for casting. However, be careful what you wish for, as you might end up with something that is too fast for your skills, and like the Trinidad 'A' series, with no spool control apart from your thumb.



Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

Hi Jeri,

You stated that you have seen frames crack and problems with bearings. Are they PENN Fathom reels?

If so, I know that PENN would like to see that problem.

I have not experienced cracked frames, but I do know about the inferior AR bearings that were fitted in the first batch of Fathoms that hit our shores(South Africa) One of my friends bought a reel with a faulty AR bearing. And that was straight out of the box.

As Jeri mentioned, not so stringent quality control.

Whenever I buy a new reel, it gets sripped and re-oiled and the drag washers get its coat of Cals

[Jeri]

Hi All,

Black Pearl – Yes, they were Penn Fathoms. The frame casing on the left side was cracked between the two upper locator screws. And the bearings on some quite new reels were all showing signs of internal corrosion – the benzene bath we use to clean out bearings, went rusty brown when we were cleaning them.

Unfortunately, here in Namibia, we are very poorly served by any of the reel manufacturers, apart from Finnor/Quantum for whom I'm an authorised service agent, there is virtually no back up. Any faults that do occur with new reels have to be sent back to South Africa, and it seems like they disappear into a Black Hole. Then the added problem of spares availability is an issue, and the stocks that the various agents carry.

I did approach all the various manufacturers to offer that service, but they declined. The Namibian market is quite small by comparison to RSA, so not a big worry to them. Went I took the position to sell Avets, I deliberately took a good selection of spares, so that I could provide the service to my clients.


Joker – Yes, just lower levels of quality controls, nearly all the major manufacturers that have ventured to have their production done in the far east have come away with that sort of problem, despite varying levels of imposed external quality control personnel from parent companies.


John – Back to your original quest, and you do make it a little difficult to offer 'informed advice', as you don't specify exactly what you are looking for the reel to achieve, or where you are going to be doing your fishing. Apart from a declared preference for Finnor, and I do actually fish with one of these in southern African waters. I did a 2 year review of the reels; that was published in 2011; they are very robust, and apart from changing the grease contents of the bearings for oils – they make a superb surf casting reel, and will provide years of service. They cast well, have an awesome drag system, and have now stood the test of time in use.

Both the Fathom and Torium have issues, and it is basically down to accepting which aspects you are prepared to compromise on the performance. All the reel designers are trying to maximise performance, but are constrained by a price bracket for their product. No one manufacturer can make the perfect reel, as it would cost too much.

The free spool design of the Fathom has been tried before to offer a solution for casters, in the Diawa Grandwave series, but still the old faithfully SL was favoured by the majority. The Torium has a lot of shortfalls, like the open bearings, no cast control and less than adequate drag.

There are not simple answers, you pays your money, and takes your choice.


Cheers from sunny Africa


Jeri

[CapeFish]

the grandwave is different to the fathom. the fathom spool runs like a leverdrag. the shaft is not part of the spool as in the grandwave where a small part of the shaft disengages. personally I think the grandwave casting ability to be greatly overrated and a weak design. regarding fin nors I don't own one but my friends that do either love them or hate them. they cast very well but some have terrible corrosion problems and gear failure. for the money a torium is a very tough reel,  it may not be a precision instrument compared to high end reels but is a very powerful reel compared to the old jigmasters, speedmasters and sl50s.

[Alto Mare]

About the fin nor, I don't know much about the newer models, but I just did a complete break down on one.
This one is about 60 year old. I was amazed on how nice the finish came out on the anodized parts. The chromed parts also look nice. I've seen that chrome finish  only on another reel, the Mitchell/Garcia from France....yes not a Penn.
This Fin nor appears to be very durable, I can tell that it was fished hard, but still looks and works good .

This isn't related to above, but there might be another nut out there like myself that only uses older models to fish with.
Every now and then I purchase new reels, I take them apart and check them out. If I like what I see, I'll keep them.
I don't have any new reels.
Just my two cents.
Carry on!
Sal

[CapeFish]

About the fin nor, I don't know much about the newer models, but I just did a complete break down on one.
This one is about 60 year old. I was amazed on how nice the finish came out on the anodized parts. The chromed parts also look nice. I've seen that chrome finish  only on another reel, the Mitchell/Garcia from France....yes not a Penn.
This Fin nor appears to be very durable, I can tell that it was fished hard, but still looks and works good .

This isn't related to above, but there might be another nut out there like myself that only uses older models to fish with.
Every now and then I purchase new reels, I take them apart and check them out. If I like what I see, I'll keep them.
I don't have any new reels.
Just my two cents.
Carry on!
Sal

fair enough, if I did trolling from a boat with thick gut I would probably also use an ancient senator or the likes but they are not the best tools for the type of fishing we do. its like a landrover series 2a its fun and simple but when you need to get a job done then there are newer vehicles that will work much better.

[Fish-aholic]

I agree about the Fathoms inferior AR bearings and lack of QC. I too have seen defective AR bearings that had not succumb to corrosion or over lubrication. Also seen the silent ambassadeur back up dogs with brass sleeves widespread so they cannot engage with the ratchet gear via friction.

Personally I don't like any reel that houses an AR bearing that cannot be pulled. I've also noticed the repair of a fathoms AR bearing will involve a new right side plate assembly as per the schematic.    

[Joker]

I agree about the Fathoms inferior AR bearings and lack of QC. I too have seen defective AR bearings that had not succumb to corrosion or over lubrication. Also seen the silent ambassadeur back up dogs with brass sleeves widespread so they cannot engage with the ratchet gear via friction.

Personally I don't like any reel that houses an AR bearing that cannot be pulled. I've also noticed the repair of a fathoms AR bearing will involve a new right side plate assembly as per the schematic.    

That AR bearing that is "fixed" is now my problem with my Penn Fathom. I have seen a tut where the bearing is "removed" with some force. A jewelers hammer and 10 socket. A bit tricky for my liking.

Other than the AR bearing I have not had a problem with the Abu style pawl yet.

I know the Toriums have the same "silent" Abu style pawls fitted, but we have overcome that problem with one of two mods.

1. The Trinidad DC pawl spring upgrade as per Alan Tani.
2. The small clicker spring under the pawl secure plate.(The part number eludes me at the moment)

[conchydong]

I have both Toriums and Fathoms and prefer the Toriums for jigging (with drag upgrades) and the Fathoms for casting. You can only expect so much out of reels within a certain price range, so it may come down to what type of fishing you do. Both are decent but not great.