Avet STAR DRAG Reels

Started by ez2cdave, July 16, 2018, 08:03:20 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ez2cdave

Quote from: mike1010 on May 23, 2020, 05:04:23 PM
Has anyone got hold of one of these yet?

Not yet . . . I haven't seen them in stores yet, either.

Tight Lines !

Rivverrat

As of this Sat. Mark at Charkbait told me they haven't seen them yet. Looking into this further I dont believe that while this may be a good reel it is at cheaper selling point & I dont believe my Torque star drags are in any danger of being replaced by them... Jeff

mike1010

#32
They actually exist, or at least this one does.  A buddy took delivery of this last week, and I talked him into letting me do a pre-fishing service on it.  This writeup concentrates on the construction of the reel, and skips lube instructions and reassembly.

Highlights:  Sturdy construction, interesting, wet (!) drag stack and novel AR dog.  "Infinite" AR with dog backup.  There is not yet a schematic or owners' manual.





See the clicker button?  First, the clicker itself is nice and loud, like a small Penn reel, a departure for Avet.  Second, the button doesn't move radially, like all earlier Avets.  It travels about five degrees off the radius.  Scott at Avet says the new clicker will be introduced to all their reels over time.



I was kind of surprised to see the vertical logo, but how else would you fit it on the plate?


Avet was not stingy greasing the rod clamp screw holes.



Gearbox drain holes just like the lever drag MX series.



The drag star has a clicker.  See the button at 3:30.



Here is the wheel for the drag star clicker.



Under that are two Bellville washers, installed in this () orientation.



The spool tensioner is different from anything I've seen in other reels.  It passes through the pinion gear to contact the end of the spool spindle.  Scott at Avet says it can safely be used to control overruns, baitcaster-style.



The headplate with externals remove.  The six screws holding each plate to the frame are the usual Avet 6-32 thread, but socket head instead of Philips head.  I've not going to remove the free spool lever.  BTW, the lever action has a "crunchy" feeling with the reel assembled.  Maybe break-in will change that.



Now we are getting somewhere.  There are no plastics or stampings here.  Everything is beefy, machined aluminum or stainless.  Scott says that internal pieces are Teflon-coated, where applicable.

It's not obvious from the picture, but one of the bridge springs was dry.  Greasing it did not cure the crunchy free spool lever, though.

The IAR collar engages with the top drag washer.  Under the washer, see the top carbon fiber washer engaging the nice, big main gear to get both surfaces working.

The IAR bearing was heavily greased, which is not what I have learned to expect.  Scott didn't seem to think it was a problem.



Here are the drag stack components under the top washer.  The CF washers have been wiped dry, but there is grease, yes, grease evident on the metal washers and inside the gear.

The small, non-Raptor LD Avets are widely criticized for marginal drag capability.  I wonder why Avet chose to make only one of the carbon fiber washers engage the gear.  Vice-Versa drag?  Even so, with roughly three times the drag washer surface of the LD reels, this setup should comfortably generate plenty of drag, say around 25 lbs.



Under the main gear is a carbon fiber washer, and under that, a fat and sturdy AR ratchet.  At five and six o'clock are two screws holding the AR dog retainer plate.  See the AR dog just peeking out.



More detail on the AR dog.  Like an Ambassadeur-style dog, it does not touch the ratchet except when activated (as in the picture).  That whisker spring alone provides pressure to make the dog engage.  Well, then, what keeps the dog "floating" above the gear, and then gets out of the way when the dog needs to work?  See the circled thing between the dog and the gear, and read on.



With the AR ratchet removed from the gear post, we see a new variation on the friction washer and ring mechanism familiar from the LD reels.  The washer is keyed to the gear post.  Operation  is the inverse of the LD reels.  Here, backplay in the gear post causes the friction ring to get out of the way of the AR dog, allowing the whisker spring to push the dog into engagement.  In the LD reels, backplay causes the friction ring to pull the dog into engagement.

Look at the whisker spring in the previous picture.  Does it seem up to the job?  I wonder, especially since the dog was swimming in oil, as if someone was hoping to ward off a problem.  The hole drilled in the dog is not used in this reel, but the part is shared with the G2 SX (and MX, I guess), where it is used.



Under the friction washer is a carrier for the washer, also keyed to the gear post.  Under the carrier see screws holing the gear post retainer, Avet's answer to Penn's gear post pin.



The gear post retainer and post.



The head plate empty except for bearings and the free spool lever assembly.



Remove six screws to take off the tail plate.  This is it, in full, including the nice, loud clicker.



The spool, including the clicker ring, which is held in place with a spring.



When I first saw a picture of one of these reels, I wondered why Avet departed from the one-piece frame and tail plate used in the LD reels.  In retrospect it seems obvious that they wanted to make spool access through the simple tail plate, rather than through the more complicated head plate.

This is a nice reel, sturdy and very easy to work on.  The only tools needed are a small Philips-head screwdriver and a 3/32 inch hex key

It will be interesting to see how the AR dog and whisker spring work out, and the greased IAR.


alantani

Quote from: mike1010 on July 07, 2020, 05:10:51 PM

Highlights:  Sturdy construction, interesting, wet (!) drag stack and novel AR dog.  "Infinite" AR with dog backup.  There is not yet a schematic or owners' manual.


seriously???  greased drag washers???   >:(
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

Rivverrat

Thanx for doing this. I'd been wanting to see the inside from the first I heard of this reel... Jeff

mo65

~YOU CAN TUNA GEETAR...BUT YOU CAN'T TUNA FEESH~


CooldadE

Hmm, I see the text  but no pictures...

Cool
I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

jurelometer

Quote from: Rivverrat on July 07, 2020, 09:22:22 PM
Thanx for doing this. I'd been wanting to see the inside from the first I heard of this reel... Jeff
x2!!!

Thanks for doing this.   This is a great breakdown review!

First some comments:

1.  The one-way bearing looks like the standard-off the shelf  variety.  If Avet is greasing the one-way bearing, I think they are basically giving up on it  working full strength over time and relying on the dog to take the load.  But if the dog is silent and the pawl has lots of teeth (thanks to the large diameter), the one-way bearing only has to work a little bit before slipping (or maybe not at all) and most folks will never notice :)  Greasing will help keep the  bearing from being as much of a rust/corrosion headache, but it begs the question of why bothering to put one in in the first place.  Market demand?


2. To risk sounding like a broken record, the surface area of a disc drag does not directly affect the stopping power, which is strictly a function of clamping force * the coefficient of friction (how slippery the surfaces are).   However, a larger circumference  means more braking work per revolution (longer distance traveled).   But the inside is still traveling a shorter distance.  To get the most braking work per revolution, you would want a large outer diameter AND a large inside diameter (less surface area).  Increasing surface area does have the potential to help make the drag smoother and provide a larger reservoir for absorbing heat and greater heat dissipation.

3. 
QuoteI wonder why Avet chose to make only one of the carbon fiber washers engage the gear.

I think that  since the bottom drag washer is sandwiched between the gear and a keyed washer,  it can only slide against one surface, and it doesn't matter which.  This design might be a bit less expensive to manufacture, and makes the drag washer order a bit more obvious.

4.  I am assuming that the yoke pins are press fit.  It might have been nice to have them threaded with some wrench flats ground into the top. but maybe I am nitpicking here.

5.  The jack and yoke look like forged (or cast?) stainless.   Nice and beefy.  These designs without a bridge plate are a bit of a mixed blessing, as the jack is stainless sliding against aluminum.  not the greatest sliding surface combo for a saltwater reel.  The Shimano TLD star is a very similar design, but since the frame is made of plastic, sliding wear/corrosion is not a problem for the TLD star.   IMHO for this type of reel,  the bridge assembly built into the side of the frame is the best way to go in terms of rigidity and protection from the elements.

6. So it looks to me like four drag surfaces in action.   Not as many as they could have put in, but if you put in more, you are just encouraging folks to crank down the drag more and break something :)

7.  Only six screws to hold down the reel foot?  What?  They couldn't fit  eight?  ::)


Now onto my questions.   


1.  The undergear drag washer has a much wider ID that the shaft.  It needs to be kept in place in order to avoid getting chewed up by the dog.  Is there another part or something on the bottom of the main gear to keep the washer centered?  If not, my vote is another last minute hack to increase the drag after they decided to grease the washers.

2.  Not clear to me from the photos on how the dog is kept silent.  If you have a chance to explain or post another photo, it would be appreciated.

3.  So there is a post affixed to the dog, and it rotates in a hole in the aluminum sideplate?  If so, this is an area where wear could become a problem.  I don't know why reel makers always have a tough time designing a strong dog shaft/alignment setup. 

4.  Does the main shaft go all the way to the sideplate on the handle side?, if not how is the pinion supported?

-J

Brendan

Thanks for the peek. I was able to see pictures the first time I viewed this but not now.
Tight lines, Brendan.

MarkT

Greased drags and a loud clicker... are you sure it's an Avet?
When I was your age Pluto was a planet!

alantani

yeah, seriously!  aren't these the guys that are adamant about using dry drags?  and now they have greased drags?  first, corona virus, now this?  what's the world coming to???
send me an email at alantani@yahoo.com for questions!

mike1010

Quote from: CooldadE on July 07, 2020, 10:41:32 PM
Hmm, I see the text  but no pictures...

Cool

Who provides your network service?  I suspect that the images are dropped out because they are big, and your provider is throttling your bandwidth.  Try off-peak hours.

mike1010

Quote from: jurelometer on July 07, 2020, 11:10:17 PM
Quote from: Rivverrat on July 07, 2020, 09:22:22 PM
Thanx for doing this. I'd been wanting to see the inside from the first I heard of this reel... Jeff
x2!!!

Thanks for doing this.   This is a great breakdown review!

First some comments:

1.  The one-way bearing looks like the standard-off the shelf  variety.  If Avet is greasing the one-way bearing, I think they are basically giving up on it  working full strength over time and relying on the dog to take the load.  But if the dog is silent and the pawl has lots of teeth (thanks to the large diameter), the one-way bearing only has to work a little bit before slipping (or maybe not at all) and most folks will never notice :)  Greasing will help keep the  bearing from being as much of a rust/corrosion headache, but it begs the question of why bothering to put one in in the first place.  Market demand?


2. To risk sounding like a broken record, the surface area of a disc drag does not directly affect the stopping power, which is strictly a function of clamping force * the coefficient of friction (how slippery the surfaces are).   However, a larger circumference  means more braking work per revolution (longer distance traveled).   But the inside is still traveling a shorter distance.  To get the most braking work per revolution, you would want a large outer diameter AND a large inside diameter (less surface area).  Increasing surface area does have the potential to help make the drag smoother and provide a larger reservoir for absorbing heat and greater heat dissipation.

3. 
QuoteI wonder why Avet chose to make only one of the carbon fiber washers engage the gear.

I think that  since the bottom drag washer is sandwiched between the gear and a keyed washer,  it can only slide against one surface, and it doesn't matter which.  This design might be a bit less expensive to manufacture, and makes the drag washer order a bit more obvious.

4.  I am assuming that the yoke pins are press fit.  It might have been nice to have them threaded with some wrench flats ground into the top. but maybe I am nitpicking here.

5.  The jack and yoke look like forged (or cast?) stainless.   Nice and beefy.  These designs without a bridge plate are a bit of a mixed blessing, as the jack is stainless sliding against aluminum.  not the greatest sliding surface combo for a saltwater reel.  The Shimano TLD star is a very similar design, but since the frame is made of plastic, sliding wear/corrosion is not a problem for the TLD star.   IMHO for this type of reel,  the bridge assembly built into the side of the frame is the best way to go in terms of rigidity and protection from the elements.

6. So it looks to me like four drag surfaces in action.   Not as many as they could have put in, but if you put in more, you are just encouraging folks to crank down the drag more and break something :)

7.  Only six screws to hold down the reel foot?  What?  They couldn't fit  eight?  ::)


Now onto my questions.   


1.  The undergear drag washer has a much wider ID that the shaft.  It needs to be kept in place in order to avoid getting chewed up by the dog.  Is there another part or something on the bottom of the main gear to keep the washer centered?  If not, my vote is another last minute hack to increase the drag after they decided to grease the washers.

2.  Not clear to me from the photos on how the dog is kept silent.  If you have a chance to explain or post another photo, it would be appreciated.

3.  So there is a post affixed to the dog, and it rotates in a hole in the aluminum sideplate?  If so, this is an area where wear could become a problem.  I don't know why reel makers always have a tough time designing a strong dog shaft/alignment setup. 

4.  Does the main shaft go all the way to the sideplate on the handle side?, if not how is the pinion supported?

-J


First, everybody, you are welcome.

Comments 2 and 3:  Got it.  Thanks.

Comment 7:  Standard for all of the SX and MX LD reels, except the SXJ, which is very narrow.  Funny thing, I've heard or read it claimed that Avet reel seats are weak.  No way.  Maybe some of their earliest reels?

Question 1:  Busted.  You've got good eyes.  I neglected to take a picture of the main gear underside, which has a raised area fitting the washer inside diameter, which centers it.

Question 2:  The "friction ring" is a circular spring that sits on the circumference of the rubber friction washer.  In normal operation, the washer just rotates inside the ring, and the end of the ring exerts pressure on the inside of the dog, holding it off the ratchet.  When back-play happens, the washer forces the end of the ring into a concave portion on the inside of the dog, allowing the whisker spring to push the dog into the ratchet.  In the picture below, see the circle drawn around the end of the friction ring sitting in the dog concavity, allowing the dog to engage.  Clear as mud?  The friction setup is used in all Avet reels, AFAIK.  I think they hold a patent.

Question 3:  No post at all.  There is a recess machined into the plate.  It holds the dog in such a way that it can rotate, but there is a retainer plate screwed over it that keeps it from escaping.  See the picture below.  Again, this is similar to how the LD dogs are set up.



Let me know if I've been unclear, and I will try to get more pictures, or find some in the Ave LD tutorials on alantani.com.

Question 4:  The spool main shaft extends to within, but not through, the pinion bearing.  The unusual spool tensioner shaft extends into the pinion from the plate side.  So the support for the pinion is these two, the yoke, and, when engaged, the main gear.

Thanks for the comments and questions; they increase my understanding of the reel.

--Mike


steelfish

thanks for the pics Mike

I dont know, I was expecting something "innovative" on this reel, since avet reels were a big hit when they arrived to the gear market
The Baja Guy

CooldadE

Still looking for pics... I'll keep checking.

Cool
I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6...