My thoughts on todays spinners

Started by Reeltyme, June 13, 2022, 11:31:52 PM

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Reeltyme

Well G Fish, I thought maybe someone would get upset a little, guess not. That's a good thing! Below is my arsenal of a mixture of my "old" reels and the "new" ones that I use. All Fin-Nor except for one Browning that I use for bass fishing. Oh ya, and a pic of the Penn 700 reel Cutty mentioned. Darn thing is as smooth as butter and flips like new!
And of course, a Shimano I am servicing, exactly what I'm complaining about.2E12F907-57BB-4918-8347-9409B08C2EBA.png162D44DC-8C80-4D98-A6B7-78F4FEC2B917.png401146F8-9681-49EA-A9A1-70540BD2FC2A.png80FC8844-F878-49AD-9745-CF4E4C0CC8E6.png818390D9-0895-42C3-B1B5-B60AEA464270.png     

nelz

#16
There's still good and affordable reels being released today. I was at Dick's recently and checked out a couple of spinners out on the open floor. Some felt good and solid, had metal frames, smooth, fast, and darn good lookin' too.  *These were not the higher end reels kept under glass.

I'm not reel shopping any more these days but if I were, new models would certainly be a possibility.    But... I still love vintage gear:fish

Gfish

Yeah. Tough to beat Shimano's internal "ossilation-post" system, or their big ol' Spinning reel AR bearings. Very smooth operating reels. But too many parts have been cheapened from what they could be. And they are a "# of parts-intensive" reel. Hard to work-on. Cheap materials saves on weight and saves the company manufacturing costs. Prolly makes 'em extra $ on part sales. A Stella level reel(never worked on one), might have the better quality stuff in it, but that's too much $ for something I godda worry about smacking with a kayak paddle, or having stolen. Simple and tough with parts availability is best for me.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

Paul Roberts

Reeltyme, curious what kinds of things you are seeing going wrong with the modern reels, say, Shimano's you see a lot of. Any repeat offender parts or mechanisms?

Benni3

Quote from: Paul Roberts on June 15, 2022, 03:03:42 AMInteresting thread. Can't offer too much. I use mostly "vintage" stuff, much form the 70's and 80's. I have a YT channel and I get comments from viewers saying, "Hey, your retro!" To which I reply, "Nah, that's just my stuff!" Or... "You need new gear!" To which I reply. "No, I don't." :)

I have some newer reels though of course. My "newest" is a Pflueger President XT (light weight version). I haven't used it a whole lot, haven't yet opened it up. Kindof afraid to! ;D I have some US Reels spinners, and they are pretty chintzy. But, I'm careful of my gear for the most part and they've held up to what I've used them for, for over a decade now. Would not recommend though, even if they were still in business. My advice would be, "Go easy on them."

As to the turnover of new models... It's been gong on for some time now. I worked in a large tackle shop back in the 80's. People would come in to the shop with a magazine, pointing out the latest advertised reel. They weren't in our reel case, bc they were advertised well before they were released! We had "last year's" stuff. Frustrating. That "last year's stuff" were the Penn SS's, DAM 1000-5000 series, Sigma's, ABU C3's and 4's, Daiwa's BG's. I've been using some of those "last year's stuff" for decades since. So I can't say much about the new stuff.

Anyway, doesn't answer your question. We're stuck with what the industry produces. Or we're perusing ebay, taking our chances, and doing the work to bring those old reels back up to snuff. Not a useful recommendation for most people nowadays. But, then there are those like Fred Oakes who specialize where, apparently, the real quality lies, in "retro".
 
The pflueger patriarch are extremely lightweight that's my go to for anything under 20lb,,,, ;) other is my torque 5 but it's like a Harley,,,,, :( the 706 with upgraded drag washers is more dependable and alot easier to work on,,,,but you need too,,,,,, ;D

Brewcrafter

I dunno, thinking aloud here but I almost suspect that spare and replacement parts are just a necessary evil that the manufacturers would do away with if they could?  After all, when they manufacture a given model/models, they will either manufacture (or subcontract with someone, say a bearing supplier, a gear manufacturer, a fastener company, etc) for enough parts to meet their projected production needs, plus probably a little "extra" for warranty purposes, etc. so that they can stand behind their product for a reasonable amount of time.  And they are most likely also driven by a need to buy in certain quantities because they are playing pretty far up the supply chain ladder (pallet lots, containers, totes, etc) And in their central manufacturing facilities they will have all of the resources to make sure they have (and can find) the appropriate frames, knobs, gears, screws, widgets, thingamabobbers, etc. and inventory at that level.  And the supply chain in retail is set up to support that.  Reels, rods, etc are "relatively" easy to track, ship, manage, sell, etc and they are doing this all against a forecast: they know how many reels they "need" to sell, how many they "think" they can sell, and look at all the factors and plan accordingly.  But with replacement and service parts not only does most of that go out the window, the costs begin to escalate very quickly simply due to the expense of organizing, moving, and storing it all.  I have mentioned before and it bears repeating the absolute over and beyond level of work that guys like Fred, Midway Tommy, and dozens of others do to secure, organize, and catalog replacement parts, and they are pretty much all doing it for their own single location; imagine the Shimanos, Daiwas, and Penns of the world that have "Distribution and Service Centers" around the world.  And that $.05 part that is sitting there is sucking up a LOT of variable cost in the process - that's how that $.25 gear pin that I sent to Hardy Todd awhile back ends up with a $1.75 price tag.
"But Brewcrafter John, spare parts are readily available for the most part in the automotive industries, wouldn't that be the same thing?  After all car manufacturers have the same incentives as reel manufacturers - they would rather sell us a new car every three years than help us maintain our current one, right?"  I think (and again, I do not have a degree in economics I'm just thinking aloud here) that it is NOT the same.  In the automotive world, just looking at scale, pretty much everyone owns a vehicle (or two, or three) but not everyone owns a fishing reel.  (But those of us that do - own lots  ;D  but I digress).  And the folks that are manufacturing those those replacement parts are most likely falling into one or more catagories: Independent 3rd party contractors that make individual parts (think Delco alternators) and it is worth their time to continue to manufacture many additional units.  The original buyer (Ford, GM, Mopar) pretty much paid the overhead for them to set up to make "X-amount" of widgets.  But now that they have everything they can continue to manufacture these widgets for a fraction of the cost, and they know there is a HUGE demand simply because there are so many cars out there.  As a matter of fact, the demand is so great that you have the second catagory, "remanufactured parts" which may or may not also be coming out of the same facilities because the demand is so great.  Our fishing reels on the other hand probably fall into the demand spectrum somewhere around like trying to find brake shoes for a 1963 International Scout or a power brake booster for a 1965 Dodge (trust me, Been there, done that) - not a lot of demand so the people that make these things can no longer sell enough to make it worth their while, and stop.  This very forum has tales of tackle shops and service centers closing their doors, and buckets of parts going into the dumpster.  Why?  Because the ROI is probably horrible.  While I may not like the philosophy myself, Tommy is spot on - for the average "Joe" it probably makes more financial sense to buy a cheap reel and replace it every few years with the latest model rather than the expense of paying someone to service it. - john

Reeltyme

Paul, The first and foremost item is of course, line roller bearings! Horrible! When did it become mandatory to have a roller on the bail anyway? Second problem main gear bearings. Then I have had quite a few oscillating sleeves deteriorated (not on Shimano as the use a worm gear). On Shimano, most of the time the bracket that holds the pawl will not come off the main shaft for service And therefore causes extra work to get the reel apart for service. I have also found that most of the Shimano reels are practically void of any lube. I am not one to pack with grease and lube what is necessary. Many of the reels I take apart are almost totally dry? I guess my biggest complaint is ordering parts. I almost never find a schematic for the model I am servicing and end up talking to a rep. to find something that I can substitute. The, Oh that model is obsolete. A 2 year old $600 Twin Power Shimano should not be "obsolete ". But then again, I shouldn't have to be ordering parts for it either. Just some of the things I have run into repeatedly.

JasonGotaProblem

Would it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Paul Roberts

Thanks, Reeltyme.

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.
:) Well, I'm on the vintage side, and must say that "doing a good job of demonstrating lacking skills" will probably never go away. Too much to know; Too much change. Keeps us on our toes. I think that's God's plan. :)

Cor

#24
I've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?

I  needed to buy another reel a few days ago, wrote down some specks and started looking, after 3 days I decided its impossible to do that type of research, each reel manufacturer has a list of 100 + reels to choose from. Only some of the manufacturers provide a full list of details and specifications of their products.   Is this not part of the problem identified here, the job off keeping an inventory of parts is too costly in relation to the price of the reel, its a business issue.  Business is supposed to react to the need or wants of its market which is who?
I bought a cheapy reel, why, because I think it would fulfil my requirements, I want to catch squids who weigh not much more then 1/2 lb each, the reel will do that.    I also know you get what you pay for.  Now I ask myself, would I have paid $500 for a stronger better quality reel of which parts would be available for the next 30 years, to catch squid with?  Possibly yes, but honestly it gets very complicated in my own mind.

If business really does what we as consumers want, then perhaps we need to look at ourselves because we buy the stuff.

When I started fishing a little while ago :-[ Penn had perhaps 5 models here and parts were available for every reel, but economics and business expectations have changed.

I don't know if reels are comparable with cars, nor do I know what the situation is in the USA, but in the EU cars are subject to many rules and standard requirements.    Items like reels are probably a free for all and not subject to any quality standards.
Cornelis

Midway Tommy

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on June 16, 2022, 10:34:25 AMWould it contribute to the discussion at all if I pretend to have my feathers ruffled? If so I can take one for the team.

Not too initially keen on the talk of the younger generations lacking the skills. I'm one of those young folks. But then my posts do a good job demonstrating that there's skills I definitely lack.

I think there is a huge difference here. You have clearly shown the willingness and desire to learn, whether it's newer or vintage equipment. That doesn't seem to be the case with the majority of the younger fishing enthusiasts.
Love those open face spinning reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco Cardinals)

Tommy D (ORCA), NE



Favorite Activity? ............... In our boat fishing
RELAXING w/ MY BEST FRIEND (My wife Bonnie)

Reeltyme

Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PMI've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?


Well Cor, It does apply to conventionals as well, maybe not to quite the same extent, but as this is the spinning forum, you get the picture. And you are also correct about the number of models available, insane! It seams that a little company called Ocean City went that route and it didn't work out so well for them.

Cor

Quote from: Reeltyme on June 16, 2022, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 03:26:39 PMI've been lurking around this thread for a while and keep on thinking  "but why spinners" surely the same applies to conventional reels?


Well Cor, It does apply to conventionals as well, maybe not to quite the same extent, but as this is the spinning forum, you get the picture. And you are also correct about the number of models available, insane! It seams that a little company called Ocean City went that route and it didn't work out so well for them.
I would also say Spinners are probably more complex bits of equipment and subject to more stresses and strains, not that I have ever opened one or fished with it. :d
Cornelis

Aiala

Quote from: Cor on June 16, 2022, 06:47:02 PMI would also say Spinners are probably more complex bits of equipment and subject to more stresses and strains...

I guess the complexity depends on the age of the reel (and the angler). Me, I'd rather fuss with a Penn 704 than a Squidder, but perhaps the new super-spinners are dauntingly intricate.  :P

Stresses and strains? Sure, lots, because if you think about it, spinners are basically a winch turned sideways. Can you imagine how that concept would work mounted on the front of a jeep??  :o 

But I will always treasure my doughty vintage coffee grinders; they'll outlast me, and I actually derive considerable satisfaction from that.  :)

~A~
I don't suffer from insanity... I enjoy every minute of it!  :D

boon

#29
There are lots of things to explore here.
The first one to look at is CPI/Inflation. $200 today is equivalent to about $75 in the mid 80's - how was the quality of a $75 reel back then?
Next, performance is relative to the best available. A modern Stella, Saltiga, Exist... they are like silk. The smoothness, precision, power, function is just incredible. You pick up what was once considered a relatively high-end reel, take for example a Penn SS, and it feels... agricultural by comparison. No instant anti-reverse, the gear meshing is very obvious - the automatic bail closure works by bashing the bail arm into the stem. Yes, tough, simple, and probably reliable, but the reality is it performs considerably worse in many regards than even a very cheap modern spinner.
A $50 Shimano is probably 90% (or more) as smooth as a $500 Shimano, which is quite incredible really. Consider the "reel purchasing triangle" of Cheap - High Performance - Durable - you only get to choose two. Some reels get surprisingly close to 2.5 out of 3, like the modern Daiwa BG.
The modern cheap spinner, in the vein of essentially use-and-replace consumer goods, undoubtedly selects Cheap and High Performance. Due to the complexity required to obtain the performance the average consumer is looking for, at a price they will accept, cuts have to be made in terms of materials etc.

As for complexity - I did a gear swap on a Stella 6000SWB from HG to PG, and at one point I would have had over 50 parts laid out in front of me. They have over 100 parts in total. It feels excessively complex, but man do they perform.....